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Toyota's competition forces Big 3 to improve

800over submitted on 10/9/2009 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 5:30:46 PM

31 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: www.detnews.com

Toyota has done more for GM, Ford and Chrysler than they could have done for themselves over the past few decades had Toyota not existed.

See, in a competitive market, all players have to perfect their game.

Detroit's automakers have always innovated and driven change, but they also built some bad cars back in the day. Until recently, Detroit's automakers scored miserably in quality and reliability surveys. They don't anymore.

Why?

Because Toyota and others have forced them to do better.

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— 800over (View Profile)

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If you call this improving... personally I think detuning an engine away from peak power to get better fuel economy isn't the way to go. Neither is spending money adding weight in the form of batteries and electric motors while keeping a full sized engine in the car. No I am not saying I love to spend money on gas, and no I am not saying I want to destroy the environment. I think that there are other concerns in this world that are much more pressing and easier to fix. I also think that the super huge emphasis on safety has led consumers to believe they can have all those distracting options because the car will be there to save them if they crash. With the modern advances in materials cars should be getting lighter weight and stronger, yet here we are in a world where simply nudging a tree can make the bumper pop off (I've seen this happen in a Camry rental car).

No... Toyota isn't forcing the Big 3 to improve, they are forcing them to conform.
— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 10/10/2009 11:55:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

Joe, I usually agree with most of your discussion points. But it is clear the in terms of reliability atleast, they are forced to measure up to the Japanese manufacturers who have long since surpassed them. In terms of the green technology...that is a another story.
— delan (View Profile)

Posted on 10/10/2009 1:14:17 PM | | Votes: 3

Reliability? Many cars of old were reliable, all you needed to do was change the oil/tires and keep filling up gas, heck some you could get away without even changing the oil. The unreliable factor kicked in when Japan started pushing new technologies. Which is where the domestic brands fell behind in the 90's. Now however, most manufacturers are reliable. I'll agree that the Toyota competition forced GM to play catch up several years ago, but now however you see very strong competition going any way. All mass production car manufacturers are reliable. To say that Toyota's game is currently forcing the Big 3 to improve is actually less accurate then saying The big 3 is forcing Toyota to improve, what with Toyota's lower overall mileage numbers and latest string of mishaps.
— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 10/10/2009 1:41:59 PM | | Votes: 1

Joe... I've never liked your comments all you do is bashing Toyota. And for that, you suck. Go and post somewhere else what you really like, go make your own site, www.joedouchbagcars.com

And by the way, it seems to me YOU HAVE NEVER EVER DRIVEN an American Car. I've driven a couple of GMs, now I drive TOYOTAs, and I can assure you RELIABILITY should be the most important factor, period. If you don't think so, then you've never owned a car.
— auronsicero (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 10:51:17 AM | | Votes: 0

Hahaha, I'm on my third American car. I can assure you I have driven them before. And I'm sorry I don't appreciate a company that axed all of its sports/sporty cars just so they could boost their reliability numbers. If you want posts where I don't bash Toyota click on my name and read the articles I've submitted.
— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 11:13:18 AM | | Votes: 3

toyota dropping their sporty models had NOTHING to do with "improving their reliability" figures.

look at the CR Frequency of Repair records. even the OLDEST MR2s and Celicas are still pretty close to the average for ALL toyota models.

which incidentally, have better records than even Lexus!

(although it is true that MOST lexus problems are only with the fancy SOUND SYSTEMS, not the mechanical systems. which are on par with all toyota products, and along with "lowly" toyota, SURPASS all other brands, regardless of price.)

i don't appreciate toyota abandoning sporty models myself, but there is the Tacoma Prerunner, which will embarass many sporty cars on a track. and the "toybaru" looks promising.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 7:01:05 PM | | Votes: -2

So you're saying that Toyota ditched sporty cars for no reason at all? That's even worse of a reason!

And a Tacoma prerunner ha! Try bringing one out to a local autocross event. It's to bad they won't let you race due to safety concerns because I'd love to see your ass getting spanked by 130hp civics.

As to CR, here read this.

http://www.allpar.com/cr.html
— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 7:33:15 PM | | Votes: 3

Now all Ttoyota has to do is work on getting good steel and better floor matts.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 10/10/2009 4:12:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

GM has to work on the 160billion dollars to pay back to the government which it works out to be less than higher grade steel and a floor mat redesign.
— veyron1001 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 9:29:35 PM | | Votes: 0

We would not have to if our "Country closed its markets, and played with the dollar like the Japan.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 10/12/2009 10:17:53 AM | | Votes: 2

I have to agree with Joe but add that between all the mass autmakers that quality and reliabilty differnces are paper thin. There are so many players in the industry that the standard pretty much has set itself and now with mor automakers wanting to join the game the top autmakers have thier work cut out for them.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 10/10/2009 4:17:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Yes, that's what happens when you have companies like Magna which supply all the companies with everything.
— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 10/10/2009 4:51:02 PM | | Votes: 3

you seem to share the MASS ILLUSION that the d3 have caught up with honda and toyota on reliability.

in fact, they have caught up and surpassed the euro brands, and maybe the second and third tier asian brands. but the big T and big H are in a league of their own when it comes to long term reliability. (the "90-day wonders" in the INITIAL quality studies don't mean hsit for long term owners.)

on a chart that tracks when, cars from different makers get to the point where ON AVERAGE they have 100 problems per 100 cars, the industry average is about 5 years. fords get up to 7. hondas, a little over 10 years. and toyota is OFF THE CHART which only goes to 10 years. by extrapolation, for every 100 toyotas, there are 100 problems only after somewhere between 15 and 17 years.

EVERYONE is chasing toyota as the BENCHMARK for long term reliability.

(and recalls don't matter much here; they tend to be supplier problems, and once fixed, don't enter the long term picture.)
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 6:53:15 PM | | Votes: -3

Mass illusion eh? I guess all these recalls and average reliability ratings including CR hits are all figments of everyone's imagination that doesn't see things in the same pink sunglasses as you.
— Joe_Limon (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 7:35:45 PM | | Votes: 3

"mass Illuison" Put your glasses on. Toyota has been in the shitter for the last decade now.

1. Tundra engine problems

2. Camry engine/trans problems

3. Tundra rust issues

4. Floor matt problems

5. Consumers reports stop giving toyota products an instant reliabilty rating about five years ago seeing these recalls and finding other bad spots in toyota's cars due to thier own research.
— 1UAW (View Profile)

Posted on 10/12/2009 10:16:24 AM | | Votes: 2

yes you guys DO suffer from mass illusion.

sure toyota had a FEW recalls in recent years. but the ones for CRITICAL items were INSIGNIFICANT considering the volume of units sold. (e.g. tundra v8 camshafts-- less than 30 units!)

in this respect they are NOWHERE as bad as the domestics. GM v8s had bad headgaskets for YEARS that were never addressed. ford just put out a recall on cruise control units that could SET THE CAR/TRUCK AFIRE that affected thousands of vehicles. i myself had to replace TWO control units on a 2000 ford. so it took ford 9 years to acknowledge this problem?

the toyota recalls involving thousands of vehicles were for relatively MINOR items, most having nothing to do with the drivetrains. NO ONE makes more reliable drivetrains than toyota, for as many millions of vehicles.

and with regard to the Frequency of repair charts, that is not the OPINION of CR editors. it is the compilation of MILLIONS of owner reported problems.

ALL challengers to toyota/lexus reliability in ANY study are only for short, 90-day periods. beyond 5 years, NO ONE matches toyota on scarcity of problems. many 5-year old AND OLDER toyota products have fewer problems than many other brands' vehicles a mere 2 or 3 years old.

there are tons of camrys and compact toyota PUs that are 20 years old and older. you don't see many competing brands used as DAILY DRIVERS that are that old.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/20/2009 5:34:22 AM | | Votes: 1

I think GM has more to fear from Hyundai than the Japanese. The I-came-from-behind Hyundai is blazing trails that has surely made GM feel more than a little embarassed. Toyota isn't doing so well, a fact that Mr Toyoda has alluded to many times before. The new environment these days says EVERYBODY should be watching each other because (in the words of Sean Penn in Casualties of War) "we all got weapons...anybody can blow anybody away at any second...which is the way it aughta be...always"
— tango (View Profile)

Posted on 10/10/2009 4:55:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6

Like what everyone says, competition is good. I'm glad that Hyundai is now in business.
— WorldofLuxury (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 8:01:16 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

WTH...... WHY PEOPLE THINK FUCKING HYUNDAI is the SHIT? Those cars are SUPER unreliable. And no, they will not finish with Toyota... I don't know where people live, but almost every Hyundai and Kia made shows paint problems after a couple of years, as well as technical problems on radio and air conditioning systems. And I have seen it with my eyes on different cars from friends (who actually take good care of their cars).
— auronsicero (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 10:58:46 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -6

Nice Hyundai bashing here. But I assure you, hyundai's reliability is currently on par with Toyota if they haven't surpassed them by now. You should ask camry owners. They don't seem too happy about having to replace the transmission or facing rust issues in a car that is less than 3 years old. Toyota has lost it's bullet proof reliability in order to gain profit and become #1. Now, they are paying the fines..
— M53R (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 4:07:46 PM | | Votes: 3

I drive a Camry and I love it. And you SIR, honestly don't fucking know what a Hyundai is... pftt Hyundai reliability on par with Toyota, you fucking Americans are crazy.... yeah tell me know the new Malibu will last longer than a new Camry. Prove it, then you're right. By the way, it will never happen.
— auronsicero (View Profile)

Posted on 10/12/2009 2:55:56 AM | | Votes: -3

Toyota has actually done more for Hyundai than anybody. The American Makes are still at rock bottom, they have designs ont he drawing board of untested, unproven products. They are in Vegas right now, its a crap shoot for those guys.

Facts:

1. Toyota being there made the trasntion to the US easier for Hyundai than it was for them.

2. Toyota also showed Hyundai that it would be foolish to spend Billions on a Luxury Brand from Scratch when it has a perfectly good aspirational product line that can and should add luxury equippment to.

3. Toyota Showed Hyundai that buying out your competitors is smarter than actually competing with them (KIA Purchase).

4. Toyota Showed Hyundai that with hard work and meticulousness, they can have a global quality leading brand as well.

5. Toyota is now showing Hyundai to not get complacent 20 years from now and let quality slip a lot.

— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 8:23:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

Wow... but true
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/12/2009 10:51:44 AM | | Votes: 1

"2. Toyota also showed Hyundai that it would be foolish to spend Billions on a Luxury Brand from Scratch when it has a perfectly good aspirational product line that can and should add luxury equippment to."

Smoke, you are just being silly. or just jealous that your Hyundai/KIA god is TOO CHEAP to open a second channel for premium vehicles.

do you seriously BELIEVE toyota "wasted billions" on the Lexus venture?

true, they've INVESTED billions. and also required dealers to invest billions. but the returns on these investments have been huge.

few dealerships are worth more than Lexus dealerships. both in the buildings and real estate, AND the revenue generated.
— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 10/20/2009 5:53:12 AM | | Votes: 1

Well Actually Honda Show Hyundai #2.

As the Acura brand is starting to become a bad long term decision for Honda.

I actually think Honda might end up dropping Acura from the US Market, and bring its brand upmarket. Have a couple of upmarket sports sedans, but focus on bringing upmarket small cars, have a sweet coupe, and a hot hatch.

Honda has great quality; not as good as Hyundai, but still great. It has these Problems:

1. Acura Brand has gone stale.

2. The Honda brand has ugly Designs like: the Accord, the New Fit, and the Civic Sedan. (Civic Coupe is their best looking product hands down) Their Japanese Products are just crazy ugly.

3. Honda like Toyota has an older customer base, though not as old as Toyota. (Hardly anybody in their 20s buys a new Honda anymore, as that Clientelle is going to Hyundai/KIA, VW/Audi, and the Americans)

4. With Honda's Prices, it might as well become an entry level luxury company.
— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 8:36:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Toyota=Japanese GM

Honda=Japanese Ford

Nissan=Japanese Chrysler

and in 10-20 years their reputations will be seen the same way as well. Watch as the quality declines.
— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 10/11/2009 8:38:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4

That was single, most retarded comment I've seen made on this site.

Nissan = Chrysler ...WTF? Do you even know what a car is???
— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 10/12/2009 12:14:38 PM | | Votes: 1

quality wont go down if Akio Toyoda has anything to do with it. He just ripped his own company for the trend they were taking. I doubt they will fall off any, and actually go back to their sporty past and high reliability. There is no way Toyota will drop down to be anything less than #1
— freshseth83 (View Profile)

Posted on 10/12/2009 3:19:43 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

It's no secret that Toyota gave the big 3 some real competition (don't forget Honda with the Accord/Civic, which was just as influential) as they had a monopoly on the american market before Japan truly "arrived on the scene".

Remember when the Taurus was #1? It was THAT good then - but the Accord/Camry kicked it's a$$ in the 90's. This was mostly due to their reputation for quality/reliability when compared to domestics. This doesn't mean they're perfect.

Think of it this way: The Auto Industry Reliability Parallels the Securities Industry

"Past Performance Cannot Guarantee Future Results"

The classic broker/dealer disclaimer for the securities industry - can easily be applied to the automotive industry.

Sure, Fixed Income securities (T-bills, corp. bonds, etc.) are safe and conservative investment vehicles (no pun intended) - but are they 100% reliable? No. (i.e., Toyota)

Small cap/emerging market or alternatives are extremely risky (i.e., Land Rover) - but do you always lose your money? No.

Stop assuming that because a vehicle has a high reliability rating that it will never fail you (and if it does, do not condemn the brand) Likewise, do not assume an unreliable brand will ALWAYS fail you. People should look at historical performance as a factor in their choice - as opposed to the only reason.

Take in the entire scope of a company's reputation and what their current goal/focus is. Don't base your opinion on one article, comment, or crazed fan boy. Do the research, and make the decision yourself.
— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 10/12/2009 12:20:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Yeah I have done my research, and it shows the Obvious. That Toyota is well on its way to becoming the Japanese GM. I dont think Mr. Toyoda can do anything to stop it either.

Facts:

1. You guys at Toyota are out of touch.

2. You guys in Toyota have been having too many recals lately.

3. You guys in Toyota are losing marketshare slowly but surely to Hyundai VW and Ford.

4. You guys at Toyota take the rest of the market for granted. You take it so for granted, youre still using the same commericals from the late 90s (They look like they belong in the late 90s rather) to advertise new models.

Nissans have sh-t build quality, its been like that for the last 10 years.

Facts:

1. The Nissan Versa Revs at 4500 RPM at 80 MPH, competitiors like Hyundai Accents only rev at 3200 RPM at 80 MPH.

2. Why do Nissans brand new at dealerships have flimsy door handles? Like they will fall off in 5 years in an ice storm.

2. Altimas still have tons of engine fires.

3. Versas are rebadged Renault Clios=a company known for its Engine Fires.

4. Sentras still have tons of build quality concerns.

5. Infinti Transmissions still are libale to go Kaput.

You guys are becoming the Japanese Chrysler.

Honda seems like its sabbotaging itself.

Facts:

1. Honda's designs are so ugly they keep missing their sales targets in the ages of people they want to buy their cars.

2. Thus, Honda's customers are older on average.

3. Acura's decreasing build quality with its controversial designs doesnt help it either.

Honda will be the Japanese Ford, which is not too bad becuase Ford has weathered the storm quite well over the last 30 years, and I think Honda will weather the storm quite well too. Remember, Ford is the only company that did not need bail out money. Even Tesla was given bailout money.
— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 10/12/2009 6:47:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

As Someone who actually knows about cars, and about the car industry today, and in the long term future, as opposed to seeing the car industry in a prism from 20 years ago I know these facts:

1. Hyundai/KIA is the stock you want to buy.

2. Hyundai/KIA cars are the cars you want to buy.

3. VW/Audi is the stock you want to buy, and the cars youd want to buy.

4. The Americans can be the cars you want to buy, but lets see the long term build quality here before we rush to any judgements.

Facts:

A. That Fiesta everybody raves about will be built in Mexico, and if you know Ford's History HECHO EN MEXICO=NO BUENO!!!!!!

B. Chrsyler/Fiat have to focus on build quality for the first 5 years to stay in the Market. J.D. Power Europe states that the Fiat Grande Punto (now called Punto, Punto Evo) has the worst build quality out of all Subcompacts sold in Europe, and Europe sells some pretty shi-ty Subcompacts; so the Fiat must be really Shi-ty.

C. GM has some nice designs, but can we trust them? History Shows, Fu-k no we cant trust them.

Though GMs blatant Copies of Hyundai/KIAs and VW/Audis Designs, plus their blatant copying of our sales techniques, warranty programs, etc... might actually signal that GM has hope. Ford Has been Cpoying too.

Chevy Equinox Grille= Rip off of Hyundai's Hexagonal Grille.

Ford Fiesta= Hyundai Accent Rip Off in the rear window area.

New Ford Headlights= KIA Headlights.
— HyundaiSmoke (View Profile)

Posted on 10/12/2009 7:04:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

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Toyota's competition forces Big 3 to improve

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