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U.S. Jaguar dealers express discomfort of an Indian owner

omarrana submitted on 12/6/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 4:04:23 PM

144 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: www.egmcartech.com

Tag Link: Jaguar

As the bidding for Jaguar heads into its final stages, some U.

S. dealers are expressing discomfort of an Indian company taking over the luxury brand. According to Ken Gorin, chairman of Jaguar’s national dealer council, dealers feel that an Indian ownership could be an image problem for the customers interested in the luxury brand.

“I don’t know that the United States consumer is ready to deal with a premium brand like Jaguar being owned by...

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U.S. Jaguar dealers express discomfort of an Indian owner

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I hooked up my accelerator to my brake lights. I hit the gas, people behind me stop, and I'm gone.
— omarrana (View Profile)

User Comments

Jaguar dealers ought to get over themselves, their attitude seems very arragant. Tata Motors would probably run the company better than Ford is currently. I guess the alternative for the Jaguar dealers would be to wither on the vine with Ford.
— kuripr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 4:58:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -7

kuripr, it is not an issue of arrogance for the dealers. It concerns the image of Jaguar as a luxury car. Tata Motors is not known for this type of vehicle. The question behind this concern is: if Ford with all of its abilities, e.g., technical, financial and marketing, could not make a successful venture of Jaguar...what makes you think Tata can succeed? After all, Tata exists because the family received preferential treatment from the government of India to begin with. It is quite easy to succeed when one is granted a monopoly with protection from foreign competition.
— eidos2004 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 5:25:09 PM | | Votes: 10

Please learn to spell.Arrogant
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 7:38:26 PM | | Votes: -2

Please learn grammar. There is a space after a period, and a period after a sentence.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 9:02:14 PM | | Votes: -2

I think the way Jag/LR looks at it, theres lots to gain and very little to lose. I mean, it may affect their sales, from 1000 cars to 800, boohoo, its still worth a shot, since they are barely selling anything now.
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 10:59:07 AM | | Votes: 1

i love jaguar. what they are doing makes sense.. i don't care what you think
— pacotacolol (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 9:28:51 AM | | Votes: 1

Dealers have concerns but I wonder how many of them are prepared to give up their Jaguar franchise -- perhaps they all should and Jaguars can be sold over the Internet and shipped direct to retail customers from India at super-low prices.

The only problem would be "where to fix them". Not really a problem if reliability is built in and certified repair centers are established.

My proposal will bring accusations of being naive but I believe that the marketing guys have not yet put on their thinking caps to make direct factory to consumer auto sales a reality. To avoid lawsuits from existing Jaguar franchisees, Tata Motors could simply buy Ford's Jaguar assets and not the Jaguar division as a going concern.
— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2007 7:06:58 PM | | Votes: 1

Or, with Land Rover in a bundle, they could be bought out by a company other than Tata and not stay with Ford.

I'm scared to see what will happen to the next Range Rover, because the current model was designed under BMW, but the new one will be a FoMoCo product.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 5:05:21 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -5

Its a POS now and will be a POS. Last PLACE.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 7:39:37 PM | | Votes: -8

?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 9:01:50 PM | | Votes: 0

Bleek, I must commend you for being the most stubborn of the Lexus fans I have seen. not a single article can go without Lexus being mentioned.

I must also say you are an idiot for keep mentioning Lexus on threads that have nothing to do it it.
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 11:00:20 AM | | Votes: 4

I agree you have to love the irony of it. I do see the dealer point, the Ford name and parts did little good to Jag reputation. I have oft heard friend comment, "I looks like a Ford" or non-Jag sales people say,"I has a lot of Ford parts." As snobby as this sounds, It is a legitimate concern.
— theoptimisticpessimist (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 7:12:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Of course they don't want a company like Tata being owners- they have enough image problems with Ford owning them. If you doubt that just look at the above discussion. For example, Ford does not run Jaguar, they own Jaguar- and there are much more egregious lies told about Jaguar than that. Imagine that type of misinformation on a significantly larger scale.

If this is being snob then so be it- I am proudly a snob.
— cdoke (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 6:52:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Of course they would

Inward looking, Paranoid, Snobs.

I guess they think if WE could not make Jaguar Successful, how could an INDIAN Company possibly do it ?

They have a better chance because they would not be worried about PROFIT initially and work on Producing a Good Lineup of Vehicles, All Ford Was interested in was the Potential Profits they could make from Jaguar and hence did nothing but produce Sub-Par Vehicles.

Same can be said for Volvo, Saab, Land Rover
{Current Range Rover was developed by BMW for an astronomical R&D cost, Something Ford would not understand}

— I95SPEEDINGTICKETS (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 7:12:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

"I guess they think if WE could not make Jaguar Successful, how could an INDIAN Company possibly do it ?"

It's not about that, not at all. And I think you know that.

This is about image. Jaguar STILL needs to maintain its image. Indian ownership might be more efficient... but it will do them no favors with potential customers.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 9:04:31 PM | | Votes: 0

S4

I know British & European Customers will not care who owns the Controlling Shares of Jaguar so long as the product on the Showroom Floor is of a Very High Standard.

I don't know why Image is so important in the USA, hell it is even more important to you guys than Quality is.

So long as Jaguar Vehicles are Designed & Built in the UK and meet the standards we expect of it we will not care who owned the Controlling Shares, That can only be achieved with a serious injection of cash and little interference from Penny Pinching Accountants who think they can design a Vehicle with a Calculator.
— I95SPEEDINGTICKETS (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 7:41:42 AM | | Votes: 0

"I know British & European Customers will not care who owns the Controlling Shares of Jaguar so long as the product on the Showroom Floor is of a Very High Standard.

I don't know why Image is so important in the USA, hell it is even more important to you guys than Quality is."

I absolutely, whole-heartedly disagree. It's been made painfully obvious to me that Europeans care desperately about "heritage" and "prestige," mostly by Sevor. That is his reasoning for why Lexus can't sell there.

Yes, Americans fall for some crappy products, but they know a good car when they see it, and that's why the good cars are, in the long run, the most successful. Toyota Camry? BMW 3 Series? Lexus RX? Mercedes-Benz S-Class? Honda Civic? I think all of those cars have impressive substance to back up their nearly flawless reputations.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 12:07:31 AM | | Votes: -4

S4

No Lexus is Designed & Built in the UK

Jaguars Are

So the 2 are not in the same boat

Remember I said so long as the product is of the standard we expect, who owns the controlling share is irrelevant.

Servor does not represent the whole of UK & Europe
— I95SPEEDINGTICKETS (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 8:15:24 AM | | Votes: 1

What do they have to be afraid of? Its not a secret that Jags are not doing well, and their reputation is already tarnished (as compared to before FoMoCo owned it in 89). It really doesn't matter what the dealerships think...
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 11:05:48 AM | | Votes: 2

They are agressive and smart people,but they will squeeze the profit out of their dealers.
— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 7:36:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

I really don't understand why some of you are trying to make this concern on behalf of the dealers as an issue of racism. No one has asserted that racism does not exist in the US. But I can assure you in my travels to India that I have found far more acts of racism and a culture of entitlement among the various levels of the society. Not the least to mention racist comments over even language groupings..so please quit the non-sense. The point is that Tata ownership would likely diminish what little prestige is left in Jaguar.
— eidos2004 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 8:47:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

oh dig your head out of your arse, it has nothing to do with racism. Rolls Royce, Bentley for example are owned by the Germans, I would prefer to see these makers in British hands but, at least German ownership makes sence-they know how to build a car. The Indians and Tata....give me a break. You think Jaguar sales are slow now-look at the home page at the Forbes list "ten worst selling cars", with Tata ownership you may as well close up shop.
— proximo26 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 1:24:33 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Dug it-- "A KKK member would gladly buy a cell phone plan from a Black Panther in Harlem if he's giving out $10 plans." -- LOL!!! That is so true- and hilarious!
— vaitha (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 3:09:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Jaguar has a right to be concerned. Its a luxury car, who in there right mind is going to spend good money on a luxury car that has ties to India. The view of India mentioned in the article is harsh but true. Think of the customers, should i go and buy a BMW with heritage or a Jaguar thats owned by a company named TATA ?
— Corsis (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 10:37:57 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

There's no need to be concern. The dealers will drive down the Jag sales. Do you think that Lexus cares (not that they have a choice) that they are associated with Toyota, who builds economical cars, for the most part? Or do you think that sales of Bentley, Lamborghini, Bugatti and Rolls Royce were affected when they were owned by companies producing "lower priced" products. Better yet, do you really think that Ferrari owners/sales are affected by ownership by Fiat?

The dealers are the idiots. Image of the parent company is nothing if they do a good job.
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 11:11:28 AM | | Votes: 2

eidos2004 - very well stated. Luxury makes expend an extraordinary amount of capital building a brand image-Ford tarnished Jaguar by coming out with the small Jag that was almost completely made from the Ford parts bin-a complete failure.

If I were part of the dealer council I would certainly voice concern over any further erosion of this historical brand - Tata would be a big question mark in propelling this brand forward.

Say what you will about BMW, but you have to admit that they have been good stewards of the heritage and image of the British autos they have produced.(Range Rover, Mini, Rolls Royce)They understand Premium market segments and what it takes to succeed there-

Tata has no experience whatsoever in the Luxury market.
— ICON (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 10:45:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

Stupid Racists.
— EvoAudi (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 10:54:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -9

Why don't you look at the reality of the situation instead of making skewed and irrational statements such as that one.
— Matthew1 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 12:36:11 AM | | Votes: 9

Why worry about who owns Jaguar? Let's just see how the final product comes out before making judgement. Besides, guess who makes Lotus...
— A4ORCE (View Profile)

Posted on 12/6/2007 10:56:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

True. Lotus is owned by a Malayasian company. That doesn't detract its 'fun to drive' image... but in Jaguar's case, it is a matter of the 'Prestige' image being diminished by the take over of a little known Indian company...most comments in this section are completely sensible regarding Jaguar/TATA. Only time will tell what happens....should be interesting...
— vaitha (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 3:32:53 PM | | Votes: 1

Fact is Jaguar's luster has been lost for years. If TATA buys Jag, why not take a chance in polishing the image of Jaguar, rather than letting Jaguar wither on the vine while it has been under Ford? Jaguar's main competers are the German makes BMW and Mercedes. Ask your self what would you buy? BMW? Mercedes? or Jaguar? I rest my case!!
— kuripr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 12:30:43 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

My cousin is on the board of directors at TATA and I have some insider information. He heard one of Tata’s strategies is to replace all NYC YELLOW CABS with Indian made Jaguars and by 2013 they plan to control 90% of the car Taxi market world wide.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 5:37:23 PM | | Votes: -1

If you're talking about Mercedes SL550 vs. Jaguar XKR... I would take the XKR, no questions asked. The Mercedes doesn't look as good, is more expensive, slower and not as nice on the inside.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 12:09:31 AM | | Votes: -2

"Jaguar has a right to be concerned. Its a luxury car"

Jaguar motor company has no say in anything right now, if they did the brand would not be looking for a different factory to build cars. Sollution to Concern is an issue jaguar should have looked into, back when Ford( a company with no tie to any luxurious lifestyle marquee cars) was on the buyers block.
— EnvyofyouRS5 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 12:54:27 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

I am sorry but i am not going to pay 50 grand for an indian luxury car, that is what the average uninformed buyer is going to think. I know that it is a bit unfair to the indians and TATA, but most of the buyers are ignorant and they'll classify it as cheap as indian curry. Also i am sure Merc and BMW owners will have a go at Jaguar owners by calling their cars rubbish because it is indian and how can they compare to the machines made in Germany. I am sorry, i am not trying to sound racist, even i am an indian, but that is what will happen, and buyers fearing such prospects will forego of the idea of buying a jaguar, because they can no longer call it british, a name that has an aura in the western world, indian sounds a bit weak and poor, not luxurious, sorry that is the truth.
— farabira1 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 2:36:00 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6

I agree Jag need to be concerned! It needs a owner that knows how to engineer & build quality cars, such as Porsche, BMW, Audi, VW, Lexus & Mercedes. Being owned by a European or Japanese brand will over time allow Jag to produce quality cars.

Sorry guys no racism implied, but Americans & Indians don't really engineer quality cars. What they do is produce excellent Hollywood films and well the Indians gave us Karma Sutra and the curry, No.1 dish in the UK!
— Gofast_321 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 2:42:54 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

is jaguar trying to grow or go down further... indians are not going to help.... they need to show further commitments.
— c36amg (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 4:23:44 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

They're not "trying" to go anywhere. Whoever buys them, buys them--Jaguar has no say.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 12:11:02 AM | | Votes: 0

I understand why Jag dealers are worried. The indian automotive industry is way, way behind even the South Korean one. I think the Chinese auto industry will pull very quickly ahead of them in a few years. Tata's products are cr@p (putting it mildly). And they are the biggest indigenous auto manufacturer in india

If we look past the smokescreen of india becoming a "superpower/industrial giant/world leader" in the near future, I don't think there is a single area of engineering-based industry that India leads in the world, or is considered first class. They simply have not demonstrated that they have the competence or ability to produce top quality engineered products

If I were a stakeholder in Jag/LRover, I would try to go down the Chrysler route...and not destroy the my reputation with TutTut
— SL65AMG (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 5:14:07 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Toughy: if India's engineers were that good, then their auto industry would be at an aceptable level..instead they produce utter tosh like Mahindra and TutTut. Their engineering based industrial out put (in terms of quality and innivation) is behind even South Korea's

Your comment about India's space superior to the European Space Agency is soooo laughable!!

Jaguar is an aspirational brand...it needs people that have a vision to run it to allow it to stay up with the competition (Merc, BMW, Audi, Lexus etc) Tata would prolly scavenge it and suck it dry
— SL65AMG (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 9:53:59 AM | | Votes: 5

"You think it is laughable when India is sending people on the moon before the European or may be the chineese? Even the US is behind schedule on this."

LOL. Could you please explain to me how, exactly the United States is behind in sending someone to the moon? Sure we haven't done it in a while, but we first did it 38 and a half years ago. China intends to send an astonaut to the moon around 2020- 51 years after the first person walked on the moon.
— cdoke (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 11:59:55 AM | | Votes: 5

Correction: 2024 is the date China intends its first astronaut to walk on the moons surface- 55 years after the first person to do so.
— cdoke (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 12:06:24 PM | | Votes: 3

"Since they have done it once"

You just cannot get anything right today can you? The United States has sent 24 people to the moon 12 only orbited it, and the other 12 actually landed on it. I belive there were 9 missions in total- all of which were under the Apollo program. Apollo 8, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 are all of them I think.
— cdoke (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 12:21:39 PM | | Votes: 3

Nah, I'm not mena enough to beat you with a stick ;)
— cdoke (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 1:18:38 PM | | Votes: 0

Maybe I need to give you a stick to beat me with over all of these typos. Maybe it's the batteries in this wireless keyboard...(right)
— cdoke (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 1:20:33 PM | | Votes: 1

Poor old Russia a country almost ten times smaller then India but per capita almost ten times richer has contributed way more in aerospace technology, innovation, science and manufacturing then India however I still would not want a Russian company buying Jaguar.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 5:05:12 PM | | Votes: 1

You must be one of those trash who has never seen anything more than your town. Do know who or what Tata is ? Do you anything about their engineering divisions ? Go and search on Tata group and their companies.

Have you heard of INCAT ? INCAT is a Tata company. Check out it here

http://www.incat.com
— mnair (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 10:29:15 PM | | Votes: 1

Sell it to YUGO. :)
— kuripr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 6:59:25 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

The UK should buy them both back.
— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 9:01:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

"I think alot of Range Rover buyers would go for it."

Eh, seeing as how Land Rover and Jaguar are holding hands, this wouldn't make sense. Jaguar should be the car division, Land Rover, the SUV division. They could be under one umbrella company, though.

"And lastly, they need to make an XK that lives up to its reputation!"

Really? Because you don't think the 2007 model does? It's stunningly beautiful, has excellent handling, a luxurious interior and engines that are... adequate. The XK doesn't need significant improvement.

Otherwise, I agree with your sentiments.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 12:16:11 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

LOL, it seems like someone went through and thoroughly de-boosted ALL of my comments in this thread.

OOohhh, I'm scared.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 2:03:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

No, I knew it wasn't you, because it starts at the very beginning of this thread. It is a bit funny, because I've noticed that I'm agreeing with people who have "+3" and "+4," while I get a "-3" from a similar comment.

"The jag for instance wouldnt need the off road engineering the RR has."

Ah, you should've said that. THAT makes sense.

Although I have read about a future Land Rover crossover called the "Range Rover County" or something along those lines. Not sure if I want that to happen. It would be more beneficial as a Jag, for Jaguar fans and for Land Rover fans.

"And as far as the XK goes, visually it's alot closer to Hyundai than Aston Martin in my eyes!"

To each his own. In the XK, I see not an Aston, but a truly modern, sexy, fresh Jaguar convertible that I can't take my eyes off of. It has curves that make the SL look dowdy.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 9:02:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

As long as the product is Jaguar not TATA, why would anyone be concerned?
— M53R (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 9:49:27 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

What did I say above? "far more egregious lies have been told about Jaguar"

The above is an example- at least in terms of their recent history.
— cdoke (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 11:23:41 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Jaguar is company that is bueracratic, backwards, and inefficient. Hopefully the possiblity of sale to Tata will give them an incentive to clean up and lean up.
— no1listensanyway (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 10:58:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Maybe Jaguar can take over the poor man's luxury segment, if TATA buys them.
— kuripr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 11:11:55 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

India has never been know for any advance, innovative, high tech, and well crafted manufacturing, which will be required to compete with the German or Japanese manufacturers. Most of India’s manufacturing is still 3rd world quality and not even on par with China, most products are low tech or cheap copies. Tata has no chance to compete with innovative German engineering. India as a 3rd world country will only make people run away and form Jag and tarnish its name. This will be a final nail in Jags coffin.

— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 12:41:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

India has never been know for any advance, innovative, high tech, and well crafted manufacturing, which will be required to compete with the German or Japanese manufacturers. Most of India’s manufacturing is still 3rd world quality and not even on par with China, most products are low tech or cheap copies. Tata has no chance to compete with innovative German engineering. India as a 3rd world country will only make people run away from Jag and tarnish its name. This will be a final nail in Jags coffin.

— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 1:11:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Once again another trash who has not been out of his town and will point to Indian in South America. Dumbo go and check out who and what your talking about. Tata's market capitalization is about $72 billion dollars that is both GM and Ford put together plus more.

check this out

http://www.tata.com/0_companies/index.htm
— mnair (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 10:39:34 PM | | Votes: 2

Proton (crap car company - I have driven some) owns Lotus in Malaysia (3rd world country) and have done wonders with the brand and image and profitability over the last 12 years.

However I am nervous about TaTa owning Jaguar. There is staggering corruption and waste in many large Indian organizations, and I am not sure if Jaguar will get the funding and long-term perspective it needs. I doubt image will be effected, but products might starve...

Personally I wish Honda would buy Jaguar and kill Acura (Honda has old ties to UK car industry - not all good of course). Make next TL the new X-Type, make MDX/RDX the Jag SUVs (with lots of changes of course) and of course keep the good Jag vehicles (XJ, XK, new XF).

Honda automatically gets a good RWD chassis, an ok V8, and great designers (all sorely needed). Jagaur gets incredible R&D, great management, long term vision etc. Perfect match in my mind - no doubt everyone here will tell me where I am wrong...
— pelucidor (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 1:19:05 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

if a jewish man can buy a german mercedes, an american can surely buy an indian jag.
— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 1:21:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Hey just shoot off. Go and research Tata technologies before you say another word.
— mnair (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 12:57:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

Per capita Bulgaria is about five times wealthier then India and about 160 times smaller. Only reason an Indian company can even afford a struggling British company is because of its uncontrolled growing population of 1.1 billion people which is more then Europe and North America combined. People pay big bucks for luxury vehicles and expect the latest in technological innovations mostly from Germany and Japan even a hint of Indian engineering in Jaguar will make people go elsewhere. For a growing company like Tata this is only good news they will have access to Jaguars technology and get mass exposure. Then they will start dumping their cheap Tata’s world wide.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 2:52:56 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

The best thing for jaguar would be if they were bought by a European car company and regain the "European image" they once had!
— AUTO_UNION (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 3:37:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

The main reason that Jag is in this current state is all because of Ford. They simply neglected Jag for the all these years the newest model to be released was the X-type. Which is just a Ford Mondeo under Jaguar sheet metal. The XK took so long to redesign and it is beautiful! If Ford would have paid more attention to Jag and put some effort it would have been up there with MB and BMW
— jt716 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 4:20:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

Oh and what I think is that Tata is just using Jag to try and bring their products to the USA. I am an Indian and I have been to India numerous times to know that their cars are just full of crap. They might be good for India, but not for the US market.
— jt716 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 4:23:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

When I mean their cars are full of crap I mean that they arent great for the US and I realy dont know how well they can build cars for the US. Lots of people have been telling that this is one of the main reason for acquiring Jag to get to Europe and the US
— jt716 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 5:17:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

My cousin is on the board of directors at TATA and I have some insider information. He heard one of Tata’s strategies is to replace all NYC YELLOW CABS with Indian made Jaguars and by 2013 they plan to control 90% of the car Taxi market world wide.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 5:38:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

That would be just what a luxury car company needs---to be a taxi!! I could just hear someone at the country club now-Hey I just got a jag that is just like the taxi I was in yesterday, all it needs now is a bright yellow paint job and all of you will be green with envy. In europe they have some luxury makes as taxi's but it just would not work over here in the U.S.A., dude I need to get a yellow cab, they have so much prestige!!
— huntr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/7/2007 8:09:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

If I'm can choose one company to take over Jaguar, I'd pick Acura and hope they make Jaguar as well built as possible (without interfering too much with their design).
I saw the new XF at the auto show last week and I think it's the most attractive sedan I've see so far, both the exterior and interior. Even its stereo system is oustanding. The new XK has been doing really well, if you can find one it's almost always selling at MSRP, which is out of reach for most consumers. But the lower priced XF has a real potential to turn Jaguar around. I can imagine it grabing tons of customers from BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc if it has great built quality. Since I personally don't know any Indian car company that successfully own/operate reputable automobile brand, I probably wouldn't recommend it. Especially now Jaguar is at a critial point of its operation, it definitely shouldn't add more uncertainty to the company.

The bottom line is, whoever has a solid reputation for managing a luxury car company should take over, the issue of race shouldn't even be in the spotlight at all.

— JohnTravolta (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 4:31:34 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

If you read well... you could see that there was another comment showing how well-paired Honda and Jaguar actually could be.

Dump struggling Acura, and make Jaguar into Honda's luxury brand. There are gobs of more potential prestige to be had in Jaguar, and with the right styling, engineering and marketing directions, it could be transformed into an unprecedented, top-notch company.

Sorry, but right now Acura is a joke. They had their peak in 1987. But it's a lost cause. They had their chance to be like Lexus--to really turn the market on its ear with tons of advertising, production- and publicity-driven excellence--but they didn't. And that's Honda's fault. I love Honda, hate Acura.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 10:46:02 PM | | Votes: -2

Honda, Acura, either one is fine by me since both are making the most reliable cars in their segments. The reason I brought up Acura is because they're a luxury (or some people called it near luxury) brand that can be more closely associated with the image that Jaguar is trying the preserve. I mean, for the upper class consumers, it definitely sounds better when they hear Jaguar is owned by Acura, instead of Honda. In addition to the image, I think the high quality control of Acura can really help Jaguar, and Acura does have a marginally better reliability then Honda.
By the way, just because the TL (getting old) and RL (interior too small to begin with) are not selling very well doesn't mean the rest of the car line aren't. Feel free to ask any Acura sales person and see if they're having trouble paying the bills. In 2008, Acura actually plan to introduce the new TL and TSX (both are likly to have SH-AWD), and I think you'll have a better impression of Acura by then.

Lexus/Toyota is another good candidate to take over Jaguar, but due to the recent decline of their reliability, I didn't recommend them.
— JohnTravolta (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 7:59:30 AM | | Votes: 4

If I can choose, I meant.
— JohnTravolta (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 4:38:43 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

All that matters is where Jag wants to go (not that they have a choice). If FoMoCo keeps them, they will continue to dwindle in the lower echelons of the luxury market, scraping what ever they can to get by. If the Jag name is to become relevant again, then perhaps they should be taken over by TaTa. You must take some risk to progress.
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 11:20:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Wow this one again. The basic problem here is the origin of owner of Jaguar. Even though we are supposed to be in a more evolved society, I don't think anyone can truly say that ignorant people don't exist. That is the issue, even though Tata maybe capable of handling the duties of Jaguar and Land Rover it is not perceived as so by some people. The image will be tarnished in some people's view because of their personal ideologies. I think Jaguar dealers concern is valid, however, one question exists in my mind: Can Jaguar sell any worse in the US? I mean what customers are left that are going to leave? It's not like Tata is buying BMW and the sales are going to decline in thousands. Again Jaguar dealers concern is valid, but they need to increase their sales and should try an option that can work. In the end I don't know whether buying Jaguar is the best option for Tata, but Jaguar can be saved by Tata.
— kart1 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 5:55:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2

They sell less in a year than what Lexus, BMW or Mercedes-Benz sell in a month (US market).
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 10:47:55 PM | | Votes: 0

Tata lack experieance in US and EU markets and Tata has no experience whatsoever in the Luxury market. having said, they have got money to rebuild Jaguar. IMO, they will do much better than FORD did with it. They may turn to BMW and buy engines from then and have Lotus to build the chase for the cars... well they may hire more bithish biys to design the car, insted of "American Ford FAN BOYS"... there you go, they have wining combination.

Its not the same Indian about 10 years ago. There is really young people who are building that country now. Now, #1 richest man in the worls is from India.
— pchera01 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 7:26:05 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

???????????

English, please.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 10:49:27 PM | | Votes: 0

no, Lakshmi Mittal, he's #3...
— ThierryHenry14 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 12:23:19 AM | | Votes: 3

I hope you are not one of those young Indians. India's wealth is only its uncontrolled population growth of 1.1 billion people plus a large immigrant population in the west. With such a large population you will find the 2% of successful people with cash who can buy companies like Jaguar or even have the 3rd richest person in the world but that’s only 2% of the population. Per capita India ranks right up there with Cuba, Nicaragua Jamaica most of India’s success is due to the fact it was once controlled by the British who brought education and some civility to a country 18 times its size. You cannot have a company like Jaguar be associated with any 3rd world country or even wealthier 2nd world countries like China.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 10:46:34 AM | | Votes: 0

also where were these delears when Jaguar was build cars with Taurus parts
— pchera01 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/8/2007 7:27:39 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

How does a company in a "third world country" be in a position to buy a "first world countty's" luxury brand?
— kuripr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 11:05:12 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

How does a company in a "third world country" be in a position to buy a "first world country's" luxury brand?

i meant country,
— kuripr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 11:07:06 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

It all about numbers, if you multiply Cuba’s population to equal India’s it would have about the same GDP. Only a small percentage of people in India have money but due to the fact that India is larger in population then Europe and North America combined the small percentage is still a huge amount of people and money. In a free world anyone can buy the company with shareholders approval. Why doesn’t Tata build up it own luxury brand why do they have to get world recognition at Jaguar's expense?
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 11:56:21 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

I don't know what you think Jaguar is at this moment. Jaguar is not the same as BMW or Mercedes, buddy. The company is failing, the sales are dwindling, and it is ready to go belly up. The situation won't be at Jaguar's expense, in no way as the expense will all be Tata's. The only thing that Jaguar has left is the name, and people know that now too that is why the sales are low. Your comments are based on underestimations, which I don't recommend on any case.
— kart1 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 11:11:15 PM | | Votes: -1

By the way didn't you answer your own question when you asked why Tata doesn't build its own luxury brand? The answer is that not a lot of people would buy an Indian branded luxury car (even if there is a chance of a good car), but Jaguar has the name and people may trust it again. It is much harder to build a luxury brand.
— kart1 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 11:15:03 PM | | Votes: -1

If they have the money to buy it, why should they "build up it own luxury brand'? Did TATA state they wanted "world recognition at Jaguar's expense?
— kuripr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 2:45:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

This is what America is all about...you must see this to fully comprehend the American psyche. If I were a Jag dealer, I would not be concerned as well.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=qvLDFtaL5HI

— kuripr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 10:45:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

This TB/KFC must be owned by an Indian American.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/10/2007 5:53:12 PM | | Votes: 1

I have been thinking on this subject of poor U.S. sales for Jaguar over the past few days and I see a very difficult time for them in terms of their image. It is issues with this image that are the biggest part of the problem.

Jaguar until a decade ago has effectively in the position that Maserati now occupies- it products had more perceived exclusivity (a nice way of saying they didn't sell many), they had suspect quality, and higher barriers to entry-i.e. their base model was significantly more expensive than the base model of any of the Germans. There is that rather infamous quote "Maserati is the only company making Jaguars anymore."

The miscalculation on the part of Jaguar when they decided to make the "baby" and fetal Jag is that by making their sales structure like the Germans they failed to realize that their cars would actually be compared to the Germans on a direct basis. Maserati, being a mimic to what Jaguar used to be, does not have this problem. The Gran Turismo is relatively heavy and slow, and the response? Who cares- its a Maserati. Jaguar forfeit that mystic to some extant when they moved down market to compete with the Germans on a model-to-model basis. That Jaguar sales structure shows that basically Americans will not tolerate a cheap Jag- hence their removal of that abomination the X-type from the U.S. market.

They have only realized and quite late in the game that one of the sole impetuses for their sales is the mystic associated with them. Regaining that is going to be quite difficult. They do intend to move up market which should have been their original move. Perhaps this perception of lost mystique is unique to me- after all I own one. Familiarity breeds contempt as they say (although I love my car). I do not believe that it is unique to me.

They sold their soul when my made the S-type and X-type and now they must beg the devil for it back- pray god he gives it to them or it will be their demise. The problem has never been their product- it is and will continue to be their image. Ian Callum has said that the biggest problem has been the "Daimlerification" of Jaguar by which he means stuffy and old- that is not the problem. The problem has been their failure to focus on their core products- the ones that DEFINE what a Jaguar is- and in so doing to destroy their own image. Tata will do nothing to bring that back. To make a pact with Tata is to make a pact with the wrong devil.
— cdoke (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 11:48:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

There are several "mystics" in there that should probably be "mystique" to avoid any ambiguity.
— cdoke (View Profile)

Posted on 12/9/2007 11:55:09 PM | | Votes: 1

Mthree

Your answer shows your intellegence! When you assume things you make an a** of your self. For your information, I am NOT an Indian. BTW your prejudice really shows.
— kuripr (View Profile)

Posted on 12/10/2007 8:14:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

I'm a proud American and we are far from perfect but we are at the top right now and will stay there for a wile. Our GDP per capita is approximately 40 times that of India. The United States with a population of approximately 0.3 billion people has won more then 300 Nobel prizes however out of 1.1 Billion people living in India only nine Indian citizens or people of Indian origin have been honored to date, but legally only 2 of Indian citizenship. Even a South Korean company like Hyundai would not be good new for Jaguar even though they have come a long way.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/10/2007 11:10:56 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

See this is why US Jaguar has concerns.
— kart1 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/10/2007 12:13:49 PM | | Votes: 0

Oh btw, tell your Indian cousin that he should shape up Tata's capabilities.
— kart1 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/10/2007 12:14:30 PM | | Votes: 0

I'm also wondering how many Olympic medals India won in the Olympics? For a country of 1.1 billion with a larger population then Europe and North America combined it should be lots. Here is the answer http://www.olympic.it/english/country/id_IND
In the last summer Olympics India won a grand total of one silver medal. US won 102, Cuba won 27 medals and Cuba is about 100 times smaller then India. Jaguar dose not belong in any 3rd world country or even for that matter China it need to have a western owner who is willing to invest money in innovation and new technology so it can compete at the top with the Germans and the Japanese.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/10/2007 5:46:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Have not seen so many ignorant folks in one board. Wake up and smell the coffee folks.

Believe it or not, a lot of "European" luxury cars already have quite a bit of Indian manufactured components in them.

I was in Costa Rica last month and met an executive from Daimler who was vacationing before moving back from Detroit to Germany. He is in India every few months sourcing components for Daimler and spoke about the growth in component sourcing from India over the last few years.

An example he gave was Bharat Forge (www.bharatforge.com) - apparently they are either #1 or #2 forging company in the world and in his words the quality is the best they can get anywhere. Daimler can't afford not to source from them.

— footloose (View Profile)

Posted on 12/12/2007 2:19:05 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

This is not ignorance it's true.
There is a huge difference between sourcing a few lo tech components form India which may be of great quality to save a few bucks. I also know India has some good MD doctors however India has no history in innovation and high technology in the automotive industry. For someone like Jaguar who must be at the top in these fields to compete with the Germans and the Japanese Tata spells disaster.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/12/2007 10:34:41 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

MThree, I don't have to prove my Costa Rica story...enough to say that what I heard from this guy was a revelation to me as well.

Everything in this world happens in cycles...you never know where the next innovation in a particular industry is going to come from. Remember that the Japenese cars were considered crap in the 60's and 70's.

If anything Tata is acquiring in Jaguar, it is poor quality with a quickly fading brand name. My colleague who used to have a brand new Jaguar had Enterprise Rent a Car on his speed dial!

It does not matter how you compete - whether you build from scratch or you acquire and then innovate. If Bharat Forge and/or Tata can acquire technology and innovate on the business side, more power to them.

Some of these Indian companies have global aspirations. Tata Steel acquired Corus Steel (http://www.corusgroup.com/en/company/about_corus/) - an Anglo-Dutch steel company for $8B last year. With that Tata already controls quite a bit of steel that goes into making Automobiles. You shiny new BMW might also be built from sheet metal supplied by Tata Steel apart from the crankshaft made by Bharat Forge.

If you stick your head out of the sand you will see innovation is happening - not just in new technology but in business models as well, bottom up!
— footloose (View Profile)

Posted on 12/12/2007 2:26:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Footloose or should I say Headloose you must be an Indian immigrant to the west or an Indian descendent leaving in the west, which would make you one of the 2% elite Indians out there. I’m only an average middle-class American. Out of 1.1 billion people in India only about 2% or 22 million people have, money and a good education or means for success. Sure there are successful Indians or Indian companies. However, not in the automotive industry especially in the Luxury segment. Also comparing an Automobile like BMW to metal, which has been made in 3rd world countries and all over the world for centuries makes no sense. I also could care less if Hi end manufacturers like BMW, Lexus and Audi were made from metals from India or Zimbabwe, as long as they meet western design standards. Companies go to India for cheap mass production and almost non existent pollutions controls and not for high end automotive R&D or quality craftsmanship. Your steel example is a perfect example of India’s use of its population size to buy up struggling western industries for cheap Indian labor and no pollution controls.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/12/2007 5:26:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

1000rrRider,

So if Jaguar exemplifies "western design standards" maybe we should rethink the value of western design standard. Apart from couple of German brands (and I own both of them), the standards seem to be set in the east now a days.

Being a middle class American (I am one too), you got to be talking to your kids about competing in this new world rather than reminiscing about "western standards". It's old and it's deceiving.

Bringing the subject back to Tata buying Jaguar - I think Tata will work in the background, be hands off from design perspective, reduce cost by bringing efficiency to the supply chain, and create a profitable situation where the employees stand a good chance at bringing back quality into the line. If that happens, the buyers will be there.
— footloose (View Profile)

Posted on 12/12/2007 6:52:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

You all ought to read the following article.

By AMY WILSON, AUTOMOTIVE NEWS

Ford Motor Co.’s anticipated sale of its Jaguar and Land Rover brands probably won’t take place until the first quarter, a top Ford executive said today.

The automaker had been expecting to complete the sale by the end of the year or early in the first quarter.

“It is most likely going to be in the first quarter,” Mark Fields, Ford’s president of the Americas, told reporters at a press event in suburban Detroit.

Fields acknowledged Ford is preparing to wrap up business for the year. There are only 10 business days left before the Christmas holiday.

"First and foremost in our minds is to make sure that we sell to a buyer that looks to grow it," Fields said. "We're still going through the process."

India's Tata Motors Ltd. and Mahindra & Mahindra Ltd. have submitted revised bids for the brands, according to media reports on Monday.

Their earlier bids for the luxury brands were in the range of $1.8-$2.0 billion, and the companies have raised those bids, according to one report.

A Tata group spokesman declined comment, while a Mahindra spokesman did not immediately return a call seeking comment.

Local newspapers last week reported final bids in the range of $1.5-$2.2 billion had been placed by Tata Motors, Mahindra and Apollo, as well as JP Morgan-backed One Equity Partners, the bidders on the final shortlist.

One of these entities will end up with this, get used to it. I don't think any of them are about to exemplify "western design standards" what ever the hell that is. Private Equity firms are not in the business of engineering automobiles. If Ford sells it these are the players, get used to it!
— tagh72 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/12/2007 8:43:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Bro, youv'e got some serious issues, please get help before you self destruct.
— tagh72 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2007 12:03:44 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Even the United States and South Korea are behind the Europeans and the Japanese in automotive technology. If India's Tata is so brilliant why don't they build up their own luxury brand and sell it in India. Theoretically India is a bigger market then Europe and North America. I believe all Tata wants to do is steal Jaguar’s technology and get their name out so later they can start dumping their cheap $9000 Indian made Tata’s around the world. I’m sorry if it sounds ignorant but that how it really is, however maybe I’m wrong, therefore please someone make me a detailed list of India’s contributions to the automotive industry as I can’t think of any.
— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2007 12:22:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

None of this crap matters, Jag is screwed! 2 are Indian companies and the other 2 are Private Equity bidders.
— tagh72 (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2007 1:16:52 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Not to offend anyone but I had a nice juicy cow at Burger King for lunch today.
Even if Tagh72 dose not drink cow urine that dose not make him a typical Indian you are a westernized Indian. Let’s put that in perspective. “W” = Westernized Indians who don’t drink cow urine and “C” will represent the typical Indian who drinks cow urine.
WCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/071213/w121329A.html
This is so funny please read.

— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 12/13/2007 8:23:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

friends why u people are crying, just because tata is an Indian company, we are the people of India who never attacked on any other country but u people do, for example:- East india Company (british), america on iraq and afghanistan....
our country is the only country who provide protection to refugee from tibet, not like America and Other country who not even dare to speak any word against china because of fear.... "1000rrRider" shame on u brother, the language which u use to express u r emotion is enough to proove that who is more civilized...
— rakshak (View Profile)

Posted on 3/30/2008 2:27:07 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Agree with rakshak
All said and done...whether we like it or not...world is moving towards equillibrum...speard of resources across the globe...so now if today it is BRIC tomorrow it will be Africa, Bhutan..
Today the US companies are falling due to over agression in lending credit, where as Japanese are surviving due to cautious approach and India are rising due to their cost conscious approach (commonisation of sub-assemblies, common platform different models etc.)
So 1000rrRider accept the reality. This all is happening because US and European have now reached saturation point of development and if they are smart (as you claim) they why they are not able to isolate them selvese. Nobody in India invited Suzuki, Audi, GM, Ford to come sell their products. If they are so professionally arrogant they let them go back to US and Europe and hang themselves...India can survive without them
— Rahul (View Profile)

Posted on 4/17/2009 4:51:31 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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