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VW Phaeton in U.S. in 2009

rybo submitted on 04/17/2008 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 10:03 AM
from: www.motorauthority.com

[53] user comments | category: Misc News

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VW Phaeton in U.S. in 2009

By all accounts, the Phaeton limo has been a major flop for Volkswagen and nowhere has it performed more badly than in the U.S. where the decision to drop the car came just two years after its launch.

However, VW execs in the U.S. have expressed interest in seeing the flagship return to the U.S. on several occasions in the past six months and new reports from Germany claim the car could return as early as next year.

With the introduction of the facelifted model last year sales of the Phaeton in Europe have actually been on the rise. Read Article

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0to60 - 4/17/2008 11:29:26 AM

+8 Boost

Why wont they just give up on this car here. I might try and find a used one. Hear you can get them for REALLY cheap.

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0to60 - 4/17/2008 12:54:40 PM

+3 Boost

They should just give the audi the W12 and call it a day

nybimmer - 4/17/2008 2:58:35 PM

+3 Boost

Used Phaetons sell for slightly less than used Audi A8's of the same year - 2004/2005/2006.

I'd just get the Audi if I were you - because they sold more of them - somebody can fix it when it inevitably breaks.

My boss bought a Phaeton when it came out and while it was a beautiful car, it had lots of electronic issues that several VW dealers just could not really fix.

S4cabriofoxone - 4/17/2008 8:40:25 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

The A8L is already available with the 6.0L W12 engine.

http://www.audiusa.com/audi/us/en2/new_cars/Audi_A8/A8L_W12.html

M35MT - 4/18/2008 8:16:10 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Random comment but an A8 would be a badass full size AWD car.

The Phaeton had no quattro variant, correct? (4-Motion??) That would've helped sales...

Kraut_god - 4/18/2008 8:59:32 AM

+2 Boost

Id maybe pay 20k for this car. maybe...

S4cabriofoxone - 4/18/2008 9:55:01 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

The Phaeton is ONLY available in AWD, but its system isn't as advanced as the A8's.

johannas - 4/17/2008 1:47:16 PM

+7 Boost

Acura... tee hee!

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EnnNorak - 4/18/2008 8:50:06 AM

+1 Boost

I totally disagree -- the "luxury" brands you mention are overpriced and I like the fact that VW is able to offer equal luxury at a much more competitive price.

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CaliCarGuy - 4/17/2008 1:39:53 PM

+10 Boost

y the hell would i want an over priced phaeton wen i can get an a8?

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EnnNorak - 4/23/2008 5:55:34 PM

+1 Boost

OK the A8 is better because of the Aluminum body and Torsen diff but I'm sure the revived Phaeton will be a lot cheaper.

Reason - 4/17/2008 3:06:02 PM

0 Boost

Looks great, great job with the refinements. What's great about this car is that it's just like the Audi A8 (great car) but without all of the pretentious stigma, save but one, the price.

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S4cabriofoxone - 4/17/2008 8:41:28 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

"What's great about this car is that it's just like the Audi A8 (great car) but without all of the pretentious stigma, save but one, the price."

How could an Audi possibly be considered "pretentious?" The A8 is a very "under-the-radar" type car.

To add, it weighs about 500lbs less than the Phaeton due to its aluminum construction. That alone is reason enough to buy one.

Audiphile - 4/19/2008 12:38:35 AM

0 Boost

Bravo, S4.

M53R - 4/17/2008 3:17:56 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

It was a great car with the wrong badge... I wonder if they well market it differently this time? Maybe something slightly bigger than the passat, but not as big as the A8?

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JUGNU - 4/17/2008 3:40:41 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

It was a rebadged A8. With exactly same engines, similar design and very close prices here in Middle East.

That's why nobody bought one and instead got the A8.

I am sure this will happen everytime (flop sales everywhere), unless VW make Phaeton quite diffrent than A8. Something like size of A6 or Phaeton CC or even a coupe something.

JUGNU

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M53R - 4/17/2008 4:14:46 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

It's not like the A8 was a sales success either. But you're right.

VISO - 4/17/2008 4:19:16 PM

0 Boost

How is the Phaeton a rebadged A8? How do you turn steel into aluminum smart guy?

VISO - 4/17/2008 4:16:44 PM

+1 Boost

First of all, The Audi A8L already comes with a W12 (oto I guess you are not really an auto enthusiast to not know this information). Second of all, the A8L has nothing to do with the Phaeton. Aluminum structure of the A8 last time I checked is not the same as a steel structure of the Phaeton unless something has changed with the periodic table of elements. And that is just the beginning of differences.

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simmonsdp - 4/17/2008 4:19:47 PM

+2 Boost

This car is and was more than less a flop in Germany and now they want to market it in the States??? Makes no sense at all...

VISO - 4/17/2008 4:17:44 PM

+1 Boost

The A8 is quite a sales success globally. Only American Sheep don't get it.

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JUGNU - 4/17/2008 5:02:50 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

steel, almunium blah blah. No one is talking about skin deep things. It's understood there will be some differnces but overall they are quite similar. Like 90%.

U know here in Middle east Price differnce between A8 and Phaeton was only Dirhams 20K (5400 Dollars only). A8 330K, Phaeton 310K.

Both with 4.2 V8 335BHP(later Phaeton was discontined and A8 recieved a boost of 15BHP).

Phaeton was a failure. A8 as M53R said is no sales success too, but still doing better.

JUGNU

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Rupert - 4/17/2008 6:56:14 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Skin deep things???

They have a completely different platform!!!! They share engines and gearboxes. Pretty much it! Not body panels, not interior, not chassis (how do you turn an aluminium spaceframe into a steel welded monocoque?). The Phaeton has far more in common with the Bentley GT.

Honestly Jugnu, you've just dropped so much in my opinion with your ignorant and uninformed statement "steel, alumunium blah blah. No one is talking about skin deep things."
That is pretty much the least skin deep thing in the whole damn car. It's what holds it together.

bulldogz - 4/17/2008 8:38:48 PM

+3 Boost

Rupert, anyone with commonsense saw the Phaeton and thought "...hmmm...overpriced VW". Why? Because it was the same size, almost identical interior (I have an A8 btw) yet cost only 5 thousand less than an A8. THAT'S why they are compared, heck every car mag said the same thing.

You're acting like it's some crazy jump to conclusions to mention the 2 in the same breath...it was basically an A8 with a VW badge, nothing more nothing less.

S4cabriofoxone - 4/17/2008 8:43:42 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

bulldogz, it's not an opinion, it's simply the truth--the A8 and Phaeton are not "twins." They are the same size and have the same engines, but they are distinctly different. Far more different than, say, the ES350 vs. Camry.

bulldogz - 4/18/2008 8:55:36 AM

+1 Boost

S4, the car flopped here BECAUSE it was too close to it's luxury sibling. If you wanna argue that people don't spend top dollar on a VW, then explain the how the Toureg cost $50k (TDI cost almost $70k)and they sell alot of them here in the US. EVERY, I'll say it again, E.V.E.R.Y car review asked what the point of the Phaeton was. Why would they do that if VW already has proven they can sell alot of $40k+ cars here?? Because the A8 was right around the same price, so they suggested to just get the luxury VERSION. Not something similiar, but the luxury division's offering.

M53R - 4/18/2008 12:21:30 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Rupert

You as a car enthusiast now that they are different, but an ordinary guy didn't. They even looked similar, and were sold next to each others. People knew Audi has better image, and who ever was able to purchase the phaeton was also able to expand slightly and purchase the A8. It was an obvious choice.

Rupert - 4/18/2008 2:53:13 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

I know the Phaeton was a massive marketing mistake - but I was correcting Jugnu who annoyed me with 'aluminium steel skin deep things'
They look similar, but they are very different.

VISO - 4/18/2008 4:21:23 PM

+2 Boost

I hate to say this, but ignorance suits you best.

Steve - 4/17/2008 6:48:34 PM

+5 Boost

In North America, if you want to sell a premium car, then it must be a member of a premium brand. Premium cars do not sell well when bearing the name or badge of an economy brand. Toyota was smart enough to know this, and they formed Lexus. Nissan formed Infinity for this purpose. Even practical and affordable Honda went more upscale with the Acura brand.

The folks at Volkswagen are missing out on this vital piece of marketing perception. The Phaeton is truly a good car, which is saddled with the Volkswagen brand and badging, and styling that looks like a big Passat.

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MattB - 4/18/2008 10:41:23 AM

+2 Boost

That's part of the problem, but the other part of the problem is that VW dealer service isn't anywhere near the level it needs to be to support a car as expensive as the Phaeton.

sizquik - 4/18/2008 11:32:16 AM

+2 Boost

Agreed, You make too much sense. VW is not a luxury brand, nor can you elevate it to luxury status though your product assortment. They are better off coming up with a completely new brand.

Steve - 4/18/2008 9:24:56 PM

+1 Boost

MattB says...
> That's part of the problem, but the other part of
> the problem is that VW dealer service isn't
> anywhere near the level it needs to be to support a
> car as expensive as the Phaeton.

Very true. I own 3 BMWs, and had them alls serviced at a premium "boutique"-style, glass and steel BMW dealer. Excellent service and quality of work, at a lofty price. People that buy an Audi A-8, or BMW 7-series are not looking to save a few bucks. They want convenience, service, and "extras" like being dropped off at home, or having the dealer pick up and deliver the car. VW dealers, by and large, cater to economy-minded owners who would rather not be paying for a glass and steel boutique-style dealership.

Phaeton could play with the big boys, if daddy let him out of the house.

MattB - 4/19/2008 7:09:01 PM

+2 Boost

Exactly. I have an Infiniti I30, and when I take my car to the dealer for service, they have a brand new G35 standing by for me to drive for the day. Someone who owns a VW Phaeton costing more than twice what my I30 costs gets VW service, the level of which is far below that offered by Infiniti. People who buy $70K+ cars expect high quality of service, and right now VW dealers don't offer that.

LUXCAR32 - 4/17/2008 9:32:49 PM

+3 Boost

I don't understand why VW would even think about this! Obviously it didn't work out before and the car hasn't changed enough to make any difference in sales. Even with a drastic overhaul I don't think the phantom could take on a comeback. Unfortunately America is a country of brand names. If someone is going to shell out a good $75,000 for a car, it better be a top tier brand. That's just how it is. Personally the phantom would be my last choice in this class also. I think its a pretty decent car, with a pretty decent design, but come on it's a volkswagen trying to compete with the likes of BMW, MB, and Audi for a comparable price. It just seems like bad business to bring it back.

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LUXCAR32 - 4/17/2008 9:33:52 PM

+1 Boost

My bad, Phaeton, not Phantom. Just took a nap, still haven't woken up completely haha.

Steve - 4/18/2008 10:03:12 AM

0 Boost

"Insanity" is expecting to get different results from doing the same thing.

StickShiftCamry - 4/17/2008 11:25:04 PM

+3 Boost

This GoObama guy is out for trouble, nobody respond to him. He doesn't like Lexus...so easy to tell.

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woood - 4/18/2008 12:09:08 AM

0 Boost

W12 for a VW just isn't right. I think the maximum configuration is a V8 for the Phaeton, with an entry level V6. It should be marketed as a more "affordable" variant or alternative to the A8. Its basically the same car anyway.

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bulldogz - 4/18/2008 8:58:16 AM

+2 Boost

they should slot it against the Avalon and Maxima, because the Passat competes more closely with the Camry in features and size.

woood - 4/18/2008 12:10:42 AM

0 Boost

"the same car market anyway" was what I meant.

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Eyecarehawaii - 4/18/2008 6:16:06 AM

+1 Boost

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/sedans/volkswagen-shrinking-next-gen-phaeton/

US is not a good market for the redesigned Phaeton. The original Phaeton was (is still) an incredible car. It had one the strongest, if not the strongest, frame of any car produced and was one of the safest cars as well. Luxury features were nice but not significantly different for the average consumer than you could get on an Audi A-8. If you went down the VW Individual path then you could have enhancements on par with the Bentley, but for that much money most would opt for the Bentley badge instead. Unfortunatley this is a good car that wasn't able to carve a suitable niche for itself. VW dealerships in the US were not (and are still not) able to take care of luxury car buyer in an acceptable manner. VW North America is clueless on what their US customers really want. The rising exchange rate and depressed economy will only serve to further depress luxury foreign car sales here. Many US consumers are ignorant enough to presume that the VW brand only equates to economy cars as well and this is a prejudice that is hard to rectify. The comments the current CEO of VW made are correct.

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Eyecarehawaii - 4/18/2008 6:21:34 AM

+3 Boost

I should add that people equating the original Phaeton to the Audi A-8 are wrong. The Phaeton shared it's frame with the original Continental GT but otherwise looked similar to an A-8. The quality of leather used on its seats were superior to that offered on the Audi. The list goes on. The same can't be said for the redesigned Phaeton due out in 2011 or so as this is based on shared Audi technology to save money.

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S4cabriofoxone - 4/18/2008 9:58:03 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Do you work for VW?

BMW4me4ever - 4/18/2008 2:39:42 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

idiot VW is at it again? Lets see how many Phaeton's they sell this time around. lmao. Cant they get a clue? Would someone slap the head guy at VW? VW has to understand that VW is the entry level for their group & Audi is the premium brand.

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huu76 - 4/18/2008 10:29:27 PM

-1 Boost

The Phaeton is a nice car, won't sell above $60K Canadian though. How many Passat W8's have you ever seen on the road?

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Audiphile - 4/19/2008 1:13:13 AM

+1 Boost

No, no, not again! Will Herr Wiedeking at Porsche please put a nail in the lid of the Phaeton coffin?

The Phaeton was a flop, while the Bentley Continental Flying Spur was a rousing success. The Audi A8, although not a megahit, has outsold the Phaeton by over two to one. Guys, nobody is going to spend $75,000 on a luxury sedan with a VW badge on it! (The W12 limousine was even more expensive!) Herr Piech - get over it!

I too have heard stories about VW toying with the idea of building a smaller, cheaper 2nd-generation, priced and sized between the VW assat and the Audi A8. Unfortunately, VW Group management has forgotten that they already build a car for this niche - the Audi A6! Stop cannibalizing your existing sales, dumbkopfs!

Guys, the Volkswagen Group has marques that compete in every segment of the automobilee market. Volkswagen and SEAT and Skoda cover the mass-market segment, Audi covers the luxury segment, Bentley covers the super-luxury segment, and Lamborghini and Bugatti cover the "supercar" segment. There is no need for Volkswagen to expand its market niche when it could do a better job competing in its existing market niche.

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amazinBimmer - 4/19/2008 10:13:02 AM

-2 Boost

GoObama.. you have made sense for the first time. I boosted you.

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S4cabriofoxone - 4/19/2008 12:04:55 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Wow. What an honor. There is nothing I would like more than a boost from you.

amazinBimmer - 4/19/2008 9:11:10 PM

+1 Boost

consider it done.

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mercuryguy - 4/22/2008 1:47:04 AM

+1 Boost

This is a car that makes a lot of sense. A sedan with a simple, yet elegant design. Why can’t Ford succeeded at building sedans anymore? They should design them big and Tall, with a classic shape and classic grille. Ford doesn’t have to build to this level of sophistication, but I’m sure they can build a fuel-efficient sedan by equipping it sensibly with a small v8 diesel and going with an 8-speed transmission. Better yet, a 2 speed rear end can be made for city driving (Low gear torque) and Highway economy (Overdrive Gear) there is too much emphasis today on the jelly-bean shape, this concept has ruined the affordable sedan. Why the domestic car builders insist on building sedans with sloping roofs that people have to bend their neck to get in and out of is beyond comprehension.
So I really love the design of this car, but for most, this car is beyond affordable. Who would want to drive this car for your sales job? You wouldn’t want to park this car near irresponsible people or even anywhere near a parking lot for that matter.
As for the Phaeton, this was probably the most luxurious car I ever sat in, consumer car anyways. I was convinced that the phaeton was the absolute best car I had seen at the Detroit Auto show, spanning several years. The Audi A8L would be in a close 2nd place for me.
A Diesel engine makes sense for the more sensible drivers that want efficiency and durability. Making the next generation smaller is a big mistake. Americans like roomy cars. For instance, when Americans buy a Ford Crown Victoria, they know it will have a lower trim level than the Mercury or Lincoln counterpart, but this customer will not accept the Ford being smaller simply because they didn’t pay the Lincoln price. That insults the buyers on a budget. So don’t make this car smaller than the A8, simply because the customer can’t afford the A8. Doing this will alienate the customer base. Economize elsewhere, but not on passenger or cargo space. Honda and Lexus are building bigger. Look at the new Accord, it is a decent sized car with generous proportions. I sat in a VW Tibberon, and I really felt like VW cut corners on that vehicle, and I always placed VW on a high pedestal. I was really concerned about how I might be able to survive an accident in that small of a vehicle. It felt tinny. If VW does this to a luxury car, they can forget about competing here in America. Although the Germans have the best engineering and quality, they do tend to be stingy and not like to give a lot of value for the money. I think they feel like that they don’t have to.

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