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What Pollutes More, A SUV or a Computer? The Answer Will Suprise You

Agent009 submitted on 12/04/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 11:41 AM
from: environment.newscientist.com

[54] user comments | category: Misc News

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What Pollutes More, A SUV or a Computer? The Answer Will Suprise You

Computer servers are at least as great a threat to the climate as SUVs or the global aviation industry, warns a new report.
Global Action Plan, a UK-based environmental organisation, publishes a report today drawing attention to the carbon footprint of the IT industry in the UK.

"Computers are seen as quite benign things sitting on your desk," says Trewin Restorick, director of the group. "But, for instance, in our charity we have one server. That server has same carbon footprint as your average SUV doing 15 miles to the gallon. Yet, whereas the SUV is seen as a villain from the environmental perspective, the server is not."

The report, An Inefficient Truth states that with more than 1 billion computers on the planet, the global IT sector is responsible for about 2% of human carbon dioxide emissions each year – a similar figure to the global airline industry.

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1995e34 - 12/4/2007 12:18:46 PM

+9 Boost

our world runs fine without suv's, but not without computers.

reply to this comment

M53R - 12/4/2007 1:12:38 PMView My AgentSpace

-4 Boost

But the enviromental hypocrites need to stop moaning about SUVs and dont forget, not every country has paved roads everywhere.

1995e34 - 12/4/2007 2:01:33 PM

+4 Boost

yeah, those countries use donkeys though

TheSailor - 12/4/2007 2:47:23 PMView My AgentSpace

+7 Boost

"But the enviromental hypocrites need to stop moaning about SUVs and dont forget, not every country has paved roads everywhere"

I'm sorry, but that is just BS! I know that you are from the UAE, and I know you've got paved roads... I also know that you like to take your behemoths off-road into the desert, but the UAE is kind of like the odd man out when it comes to off-roaders, because in countries where they actually need off-roaders to do off-road stuff, they don't go out and buy a BMW X5 (which is a rubbish off roader BTW), they buy a Land Rover Defender TD4 or a Toyota Hi Lux D4-D... And those are not the biggest sinners here! The Fashion SUVs like an X5, ML, GL, Q7, Range Rover, Cayenne, [insert random american SUV here] etc. does not have any purpose except to kill our planet in a damn hurry! If you need a car which can go off road, one with a reduction gear and a diesel engine is still the only real solution... The rest are just stupid... Name one SUV which is really good for going off-road!

I agree with 1995e34 here... I'd rather live without all those stinking SUVs than computers!

1995e34 - 12/4/2007 2:57:10 PM

+1 Boost

(crowd cheers)

theoptimisticpessimist - 12/4/2007 4:58:01 PM

+6 Boost

Unfortunately it seems the world runs better with out humans.

M53R - 12/5/2007 3:29:39 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

TheSailor

Im not giving an excuse for buying an X5, and I still have another SUV (Tahoe) to do the offroading. They dont sell wagons over here, and I want something luxury, with space, what do I buy? A minivan?! I cant live with a 4 cylinder engine, I ll kill myself before I reach my destination.

TheSailor - 12/5/2007 7:53:50 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Uhmm... Unless you're 8 feet, I don't see how you need an SUV to fit in there! How about an E-class, 5-series, A6, GS etc. or if they are too small, how about an S-class, 7-series, A8 or LS... They're not exactly green, but they're not nearly as bad as SUVs... And they offer more luxury items... And I know you get those in the UAE...

M53R - 12/5/2007 9:43:54 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

A 5er, E class, GS, etc.. are all too small. I need to fit 6 kids in the car every morning. Even an S-Class, 7er, LS, etc.. dont fit. I CANT live with a minivan. Its very noisey at high speeds (4 cylinders). I think I made the right choice.

Shredmo - 12/5/2007 10:00:18 AM

+1 Boost

What minivan has 4 cylinders? I want one!

1995e34 - 12/5/2007 11:06:27 AM

+2 Boost

an x5 fits 6 kids? SAFELY?

1995e34 - 12/5/2007 11:16:17 AM

+1 Boost

i guess it CAN. my brother has 6 kids, so i can empathize a bit. but the individual that actually packs the seats of his suv is not common enough. way too many people have em just cause they can afford $3 gas...but $5 gas maybe not.

S4cabriofoxone - 12/5/2007 6:15:21 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

M53R... the X5's third row is absolutely useless. I hope you use the Tahoe to ferry your kids, because the X5 would crush whoever is in the back.

I love our X5, but I didn't need the third row, and didn't get it. If I needed a third row it would not be in our garage right now.

Designer1 - 12/4/2007 1:28:23 PM

-3 Boost

Environment bull shit.

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EL34 - 12/4/2007 1:44:39 PM

+1 Boost

All you people that don't like SUV's need to get over to China and Russia and tell them they need to clean up their acts.

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1995e34 - 12/4/2007 2:02:15 PM

+2 Boost

that's our president's job

TheSailor - 12/4/2007 2:56:50 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

Seeing how China - who have almost five times the population of the US - have only last year overtaken the US as the biggest source of CO2, I can't see why we need to tell them that they are not allowed to have all the creature comforts we have instead of telling the americans that they need to look inwards instead of outwards! I've been to China more times than I can keep track of (literally) and strangely enough, you don't see all those people driving around alone in ridiculously large cars with only one occupant! Go to Shanghai or Hong Kong, the two most modern cities in China and see what they are all driving - public transport, small cars or bicycles!!!

So I think you, as an american and republican, should STFU and start looking inwards and stop worrying about china! Once you guys have cleaned up to the level where you are even close to european standards (11 tonnes per capita per year) instead of almost twice that (20 tonnes) you might be allowed to start talking about China where each inhabitant accounts for just four tonnes...

PLEASE!!! GET A CLUE!!!

RealitySmack - 12/4/2007 3:41:27 PM

+3 Boost

Just want to add that the problem we have right now was NOT created overnight, it was the industrial age and technology used there after that has caused the problems we see today. So, we can't blame others' for our problems. We need to sort it out.

1970toyotamarc - 12/4/2007 7:02:53 PM

+4 Boost

I believe China, along with most other countries, have higher mpg standards than the US.

But admittedly they must control their carbon outputs in other areas. Hey, why dont we lead by example, or maybe stop buying all those Wal-Mart toys if they dont clean up their act. Nah, sacrifice is no longer in the American vocabulary.

TheSailor - 12/5/2007 7:51:03 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

I'm just going to repeat myself here: 4 tonnes pr capita VS 20 tonnes pr capita... Leave China alone and be glad they sell you all your cheap stuff! They're the reason you guys can afford to drive around in those honkin' big SUVs!

Shredmo - 12/4/2007 2:01:11 PM

+3 Boost

A server and it's environment use a lot of energy compared to a pen and paper. Not every household has a server operating. Also, for my home PC, we don't alter the temp or the environment for it's benefit, therefore you cannot add this to it's carbon foot print.

Computers are necessary for the airline industry, as well as nearly all industries, so in each of these instances, it's foot print should be divided up and added directly to each of these industrie's foot prints. It should not be a foot print all it's own.

SUVs are often useless. More often than not there is a much better vehicle built for all of the tasks the typical SUV is used for. Rarely is the SUV truely necessary.

reply to this comment

jeffy210 - 12/4/2007 2:23:24 PM

+5 Boost

Besides the necessity of computers that have been pointed out here. Computers can already run on many different types of energy (solar, wind, gas, coal, nuclear, etc.) How many cars out there can run on that many different types of fuel?

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TheSailor - 12/4/2007 3:03:04 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

This is just ridiculous... So a server might pollute more than an SUV, but they are a damned bit more versatile and we don't have as many of them (of the size we are talking here)... How about... Hmm, computers consuming less trees than pencil and paper? give all the children of the world a computer and see the rain forrests grow!

Just rubbish! Like comparing a coffee maker to a TV... They both pollute, but what else do they have in common.

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w209w114 - 12/5/2007 1:01:34 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I agree

headphones - 12/7/2007 12:14:41 AM

+1 Boost

once again
the truest comment posted in this thread was by
theoptimisticpessimist :

Unfortunately it seems the world runs better with out humans.

Rupert - 12/4/2007 5:33:38 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

SUVs are just unnecessary, as they can usually be easily replaced by an estate car or a mini-van.

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w209w114 - 12/4/2007 5:35:46 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

America should stick it to the world and threaten it with nuclear arms in order to save it from itself!!!

Most developing countries dont give a hoot about greenhouse gases.

America can demand global "green" just as well as it demands global "peace" and punish the biggest polluters the way we do to terrorists. They are only hurting all of us and our children in the long run.

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TheSailor - 12/5/2007 7:46:51 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

The funny thing about what you said is that you don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about, because the biggest polluters IN THE WORLD are you! So go and point that nuclear bomb up your a**!

w209w114 - 12/5/2007 12:45:27 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

I do know what Im talking about. I do realize we are the biggest polluters because of the high industrialization rate we have here in America and the large amount of land we take up. However, we dont allow pollution and factories to go unregulated when it comes to emissions like the Chinese do and many other countries.

In many third world or "developing nations" whatever you want to call them, the governments are too busy worrying about civil wars, political instability and a rebellious popullation to worry about the environment. They let factories go unregulated, greenhouse gases and hazardous wastes spew into out plante.

And I do know what Im talking about, maybe you should get off your cloud and take a course in sociology and the environment you shmuck. Youre obviously the one that doesnt know what they are talking about.

That being said, Its no wonder that many people like you resent the United states because we have been an all powerful nation for almost a century now, and we do get our ways most of the time and feel responsible for the world although our leaders dont make the best decisions 100% of the time. I would love to see just how Europe would have turned out if the United States wouldnt have existed or been powerful enough to defeat the Axis powers. You would be singing a different tune, probably at a concentration camp or maybe not even existed.

Just something to think about.

w209w114 - 12/5/2007 12:58:38 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I might add that my original comment was a bit radical but completely logical. Industrialized powerful nations should hold sanctions against or penalize those countries that have no environmentl policy. We all have to take part in clening up the world. What use is it when one side of the world goes green and the other increases pollution? We all breathe the same air and drink the same water.

TheSailor - 12/5/2007 2:16:53 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

LOL... I don't resent america... I do however resent the americans who think that if it wasn't for them, the world wouldn't survive... Thank you for (in colaboration with Stalin) saving us from the germans some 60 odd years ago... But since then, you guys haven't had that much success have you?

As to the developing countries not giving a "hoot" about the environment, that might be true for most african countries, but those countries are still at a very early stage in becomming industrialized. The asian nations, however, are actually trying to do something about their emmisions. They might not be able to do that much, but they are constantly improving their powerplants and their production methods. I was offered a job as a project engineer (me being a marine engineer with extensive generator knowledge) for a danish company which have just gotten a HUGE order for clean power plant technology in China. The power plants will cost twice as much as the old fashioned power plants they used to build and the biggest advantage is that they will only pollute half as much. And how about that HUGE three gorges dam project? That is the biggest hydroelectric powerplant in the world! Now they are already doing this now, while they are still in the early stages of becomming industrialized!
And let's not forget that though China might 3/4 of their power from coal, the US is not that much better drawing about 50% of their power from coal... Yes that is correct... FIFTY percent! And when you then take into account the fact that the US, though it only has 1/5 the population they still use almost as much coal as China... 1.060.000.000 tonnes versus 1.310.000.000 tonnes... And what about you guys consumming three times as much oil as China?! And 16 times more natural gas! Or that you guys import 7 times as much energy as china (though you are only 1/5 the population).
There is no getting around the fact that the US would be the best place to start when it comes to saving the planet! Once China emmits 5 times what they do now, you can start talking, because then they'll be just as dirty as you guys! And a lot of their pollution can be traced back to the US as you buy so much of the stuff they produce!

And don't even mention India, because they only consume 1/3 of the coal, 1/8 of the oil, 1/20 of the natural gas that you do!

But don't take my word for it... Go through the statistics yourself: www.nationmaster.com

Soooo... You were saying?

If what you were saying, in your own rabid and deragned way, was that we have to be proactive instead of reactive (which is the case for the US where it is an almost impossible and incomprehensively big task) by actively doing something to help developing countries not get the same outrageous energy consumption as you, then we agree. But if you were just saying "Let the others do the work so we don't have to", then you are just another moron who doesn't know what he is talking about!

w209w114 - 12/5/2007 3:07:52 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

"But since then, you guys haven't had that much success have you?"

If you say so. Lets ignore the fact that for the past 50 years after WWII we have maintaining a good economy and the highest standard of living per capita of any country in the world.

"As to the developing countries not giving a "hoot" about the environment, that might be true for most african countries, but those countries are still at a very early stage in becomming industrialized."

Not only Africa but Latin America. Have you traveled there recently? I have and its disturbing how much pollution is in abundance.

"The asian nations, however, are actually trying to do something about their emmisions"

Only a couple Asian nations (China notably thanks to international pressure) are doing something. The rest are doing something on paper and on the public relations front but not taking the action necessary to help out the sitution.

When Chinas population reaches the level of the US they will be more than 5 times more polluting than we are if they keep the rate they are going, 7.25 times more polluting to be exact based on your own statistics.

Dont forget Europe buys just as much from China, Its getting ridiculously expensive for you guys there. I have close friends and family members that have been and come back with stories on how such basic things as food and clothes are so much costlier in comparison than they are here.

Your statistics, if examined closely prove nothing, Those coutries consume more than the US relatively speaking and based on their industrialization rates.

If was saying in my own "rabid and deragned way" that we have to be proactive instead of reactive as A WHOLE.

Why is it up to the U.S. Soley to solve everything?

I love how u guys criticize us for not taking action in some fronts but start to bash us once once we do and then all of a sudden we become the "selfish imperialists" that think we own the world. We contribute A HUGE amount of funds to help victims world wide during economic disasters (more than any other country) but it seems that that is always overlooked.

TheSailor - 12/5/2007 5:22:01 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I'm sorry, but did you just completely ignore what I just wrote?! China is implementing power plants TWICE as efficient as the ones they are using today... That is way more efficient than the powerplants used in the US. This not only applies to China and India, I just chose China and India because they make up 1/3 of the worlds population, but also to countries like Malaysia, Korea, Japan (especially) and to some extend the Philippines. That just about sums up the countries responsible for all asian export (besides some wood from Indonesia). These countries are all doing alot to help our environment! The company who offered me a job have had advisory or supevisory roles in building clean(er) technology in all of these countries. But it still isn't good enough! If it was up to me, we should tear the whole thing down and build nuclear power... And NO it won't blow up... It has happened once twenty years ago!
So no, China will probably never get to a level where they pollute nearly as much, per capita, as you do in the US today! What we see in the US today, should (and hopefully will be) the absolute top! I can only hope (and you should too) that the consumption of fossil fuels and emmision of greenhouse gasses will drop from this point onwards!

Let's see... Then there was the "Highest living standard in the world" claim... Boy have I heard that before... But nobody have proven it yet! How do you meassure standard of living? Isn't the goal to be happy with your life? Isn't that what standard of living is all about? Because then, my little corner of the world (Denmark) is the country with the highest standard of living! Some people say it is meassureable in consumer prices... If that is so, then Europe is certainly a better place to live! And while we're at that one, the reason why your friends and family find Europe so darn expensive, is not because of our prices being high, but your money being worth less and less! Contrary to common belief, the world doesn't revolve around the dollar anymore. As a professional sailor, I travel the world and a thing I've noticed is that whenever you ask somebody whether they'd rather be payed for their goods in dollar or Euro they ALWAYS prefer euros... Hmm...

Next point:
"Your statistics, if examined closely prove nothing, Those coutries consume more than the US relatively speaking and based on their industrialization rates."

WHAT?!?! That makes no sence! If we speak in relative terms, you must be talking about the size of the country and then, in relative terms, the US consume FAR more than these countries! If we talk in absolute terms though, the numbers I mentioned fits as I wasn't talking per capita!
My statistics prove that the US consume more fossil fuel than China or India... That is not debateable in any way!

Then there was the:

"Why is it up to the U.S. Soley to solve everything?

I love how u guys criticize us for not taking action in some fronts but start to bash us once once we do

TheSailor - 12/5/2007 5:23:37 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Woops... Post continues further down...

2007Tahoe - 12/6/2007 8:45:36 PM

+1 Boost

@w209w114

It's people like you who give this sad country a bad image.

headphones - 12/7/2007 12:17:10 AM

+2 Boost

The only way we can create is to destroy.

save the planet. destroy humankind: The only animal which kills for sheer pleasure, entertainment, and accessories.

1970toyotamarc - 12/4/2007 7:04:33 PM

+5 Boost

Its a good thing I drive a Prius home to make up for this huge carbon footprint as I argue on Autospies all day, running my computer.

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 12/5/2007 7:54:59 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

LOL

S4cabriofoxone - 12/4/2007 7:17:48 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

The fact that you put "The Answer Will Surprise You" in the title made sure of the fact that I already knew what the answer was before I clicked on the article.

reply to this comment

0to60 - 12/4/2007 9:26:23 PM

+1 Boost

well arent you smart...doink!

MunichRob - 12/5/2007 5:36:51 AMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

Here's one for ya... They say a Great Blue Whale on an annual basis will do more harm to the environment of the sea than an oil tanker will. Whales shit out 70% of the food they consume which is in the amount of thousands of tons, & therefore polluting the ocean more than man.

People the sky isn’t falling, but what I love most is people who say it’s already to late to turn back & that we’ve already F’d the environment past the point, & yet they’re still trying to save it. The planet has endured so much that I’m sure it can handle the presence of mankind.

The environmental discussion & mantra are so one-sided due to the strong Liberal influence found throughout the media & Hollywood, & high profile figures such as Al Gore trying to cash in a buck off of it.

The environmental lobby is a profit organization, the more they scare us the more money they’re bound to make. There are way bigger issues in the world today than Global Warming.

reply to this comment

RealitySmack - 12/5/2007 9:46:53 AM

+2 Boost

LOL!

That's the most stupidest thing I've heard! Sure, whale's may shit out 70% of what they eat. But, do you know what happens after that? Other smaller creatures clean up the mess. And the whale eats those smaller creatures. And the cycle continues. And that's known as the Circle of Life. Spilling millions of gallons of oil that doesn't belong in the ocean that the smaller creatures can't clean up is NOT part of the Circle of Life! And on top of that, the whale's aren't the only ones taking shit in the ocean and the entire planet!

Shredmo - 12/5/2007 10:07:56 AM

+1 Boost

Munich,

The same could be said about omiting you from the planet. I know my automobile probably pollutes 1/100th of what you do annually, so does that mean it is a more acceptable occupant of the planet than you?

I agree the sky isn't falling, but now is a better time to begin to care about the planet, rather than once it is convenient for you. It is only getting worse out there.

Think about it.

1995e34 - 12/5/2007 11:12:23 AM

+2 Boost

yeah, al gore's just in it for the money and the hos.

1995e34 - 12/5/2007 11:24:53 AM

+1 Boost

maybe the sky isn't falling, but assuming it's not, just to rationalize your own consumption is quite irresponsible.

if they "environmental lobby" is just a profit driven organization, then why not embrace it as you would halliburton? must be creating jobs for americans, right?

and if the media were nearly as liberal as people claim, america wouldn't be in iraq right now. they were so deliberately un-liberal, they let some monkey mire us in a civil war.

soz97dnl - 12/5/2007 1:42:32 PM

+1 Boost

How much CO2 computers save with people no longer having to show up personally everywhere, but are able to do things like banking from their home couch?

However, I'd like to see more specific results to this: How much CO2 does spam mailing cause? Or, the office or OS applications I'm using today are about million times bigger than the ones I was using in the late 90's, although I'm still mainly doing the same things with them. How much natural resources are wasted on storing all this?

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 12/5/2007 5:22:59 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

and then all of a sudden we become the "selfish imperialists" that think we own the world. "

OHHHH PLEASE! I didn't say it was all up to you, I actually made sure I didn't because saving the planet is EVERYBODIES responsibility! But that also means you in the US! And the fact of the matter is that you are still the biggest energy consumer in the world and have an enormous CO2 outlet! Therefore it is only natural to point fingers, with good reason!

As to my "If what you were saying, in your own rabid and deragned way, was that we have to be proactive instead of reactive (which is the case for the US where it is an almost impossible and incomprehensively big task)" comment, I think you completely misunderstood it! I said WE, as in all of us in the developed countries not just the US, have to do something! The part about the reactive effort in the US was just stating the obvious, that it is very hard for anybody to do something to seriously bring down the american consumption and subsequent outlet of greenhouse gasses!

Finally:

"We contribute A HUGE amount of funds to help victims world wide during economic disasters (more than any other country) but it seems that that is always overlooked."

Since when have you been such generous donors? PLEASE, look at this statistic:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_eco_aid_don_percap-economic-aid-donor-per-capita

Right at the top, you find Luxembourg and then my little corner of the globe... with almost 390$ per capita in economic aid... The US is stuck at #18 with a whopping contribution of 22$ per capita WOOOOOOOW!!!!
Even if you look at overall contributions, you are just number four!

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_eco_aid_don-economy-economic-aid-donor

My little country, though it only has 1/50th the population of the US contributes with 1/3 of what the US does... So why don't you just shove it about being such generous donors?! I've been to New Orleans... I've seen economic aid "the american way"!

reply to this comment

w209w114 - 12/6/2007 9:44:32 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

My comment continues below as well.

MunichRob - 12/6/2007 12:55:15 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

"RealitySmack" you have to consider than an oil tanker obviously isn't spilling it's oil into the sea on every trip it makes. Besides I read that study in a magazine, it's not my own, I thought I'd just throw it out there for discussion.

"Shredmo" caring about the environment is one thing, but if Green Peace & other corrupt/over-the-top environmental corporations (Because that's what they are) had it there way, so many luxuries in our lives would be taken away to the point that, I think everyone would just say F*ck it..."I'd rather live on this Earth for however long is left, & do it the way we used too.”

Green Peace & other extreme environmental groups or figures such as David Suzuki, tend to contradict themselves a lot of the time. How much C02 emissions do you think Green Peace releases into the air annually to fight for their causes? How many laws do they break & how many lives do they potentially endanger to save the life of a chicken? Get me?

It’s hard to get into it on an internet forum, but just know that I will continue driving my V-8 powered vehicles until technology & industry (Another thing environmentalists hate) provide a more economical substitute.

reply to this comment

RealitySmack - 12/8/2007 9:21:04 AM

+1 Boost

Yea, I figured that you must have read it somewhere. But, people who write this stuff need to get a smack of reality!

w209w114 - 12/6/2007 9:42:38 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I didnt ignore what you wrote. But its easy to take 1 example out of an entire nation like China and assume they are doing that everywhere throught the country. It doesnt work that way. I dont think they are doing enough, certainly much less that Europe and the US.

Anyway, you missed my point too about the statistics.

"China will probably never get to a level where they pollute nearly as much, per capita, as you do in the US today!"

How did you come up with that assumption? What you believe isnt necessarily whats going to happen. Lets hope they are 7.25 times more effiecient than the US. Until I see that happen IM not believeing it.

Correction: "What we see in the WORLD today should (and hopefully will be) the absolute top!"

The standard of living refers to the quality and quantity of goods and services available to people, and the way these goods and services are distributed within a population. It is generally measured by standards such as income inequality, poverty rate, real income per person. Other measures such as access and quality of health care, educational standards and social rights are often used too.

"Some people say it is meassureable in consumer prices... If that is so, then Europe is certainly a better place to live!"

What are you talking about? Europe is ridiculously expensive to live in, you guys have less purchasing power than we do here (look up GDP per Capita) I think a can of Coca Cola is like the equivalent of $4 verus 60 cents here, I mean come on.

"the world doesn't revolve around the dollar anymore."

While that may be true in part, it is still the main currency worldwide. Europe was smart to follow our example by creating the Euro, I dont even know the name of the currency you'd be using in Denmark right now if it wasnt the Euro, and neither does anyone else unless they had been there or researched it.

Europe should be worried about the dollar as well. The EU economy is strongly tied to America. German behemoths such as Volkswagen BMW and Mercedes will have no choice but to eventually rise prices (they are making less profit now per car due to the fact they have maintained prices more or less the same) The rise in prices will give other companies such as Lexus and even American auto makers the advantage which will in turn hurt the European community. You should know that.

reply to this comment

TheSailor - 12/6/2007 2:37:23 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

I am talking to a wall here... Whatever man... If you really think China will ever be able to consume so much raw material that they'll be able to pollute 5 times as much as you are now, you are not worth having a discussion with!

Could you please provide me with the facts showing that you have a higher standard of living than we do? And that we pay 4$ for a coke (I've never done that, that is for sure).
The notion that GDP has anything to do with standard of living is just silly... Sure a country with a 5$ gdp is going to have a worse standard of living than one with a 40.000$ GDP, but whenever people claim that people in the US have a better life than us, I get pissed! Especially when comming from one who've never been here! YOu know what you can do about your GDP? You can go and shove it where the sun never shines... You can't use GDP, can you? Can you go and pay your mortgage with GDP? Nope... You know what... Even if you did have the highest standard of living in the US, you can keep it! We're still happier in Denmark... We don't have to care about health care, schooling, unemployment benefits, retirement or anything like that... It is all taken care of for us by the government, our crime rate is way lower than in the US, we don't have ANY homeless people, we have just about the least corrupt government in the world, we have the lowest unemployment rate in the world, we actually have to import labor and nobody have to live off foodstamps or charity... So what was it you were saying about standard of living? You keep your GDP... I'll take my government benefits and safe little corner of the globe any day...

And even your criteria don't hold water as the US is about as equal (in income) as countries like Turkmenistan, Bukina Faso, Georgia, Cambodia and Russia... Just go and look up the GINI index... Look all the way at the bottom for the most equal country... That would be Denmark in case you were wondering...

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_inc_equ_un_gin_ind-income-equality-un-gini-index

You know what? I can keep pulling statistics out of my hat all week, but it won't change the fact that the pollution threat is very real and not something which might hit us in 50 years when China might have a somewhat higher greenhouse gas contribution. Therefore, the biggest sinners should bear the biggest burden... And that would be YOU! Don't start pointing fingers at a country like China when you can't even do anything to bring down your own emmision! Hell, your government couldn't even get SUVs under the 35 mpg bill because the government is so influenced by commercial interests... Pathetic...

Finally:

"Europe should be worried about the dollar as well. The EU economy is strongly tied to America. "

OHHHH... So that is why the Euro have kept becomming stronger while the dollar keeps plummiting? Silly you... Thanks to the euro, Europe and the rest of the world don't have to fear the imminent collapse of the american economy!

TheSailor - 12/6/2007 2:40:23 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

We still have the freedom to buy what we want from who we want! The only thing we still trade in dollars is oil. And thanks to the dollars continued demise, our oil prices aren't rising at the same speed as yours because the price increase is being buffered by the dropping dollar!

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