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What has gone wrong with BMW "M" cars?

GermanNut submitted on 07/08/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 5:01 PM
from: www.autospies.com

[38] user comments | category: Spy Shots

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What has gone wrong with BMW "M" cars?

What has gone wrong with BMW's spectacular "M" division?

The 400 horsepower M5 and E46 M3 were undeniably the best in class. They offered handling, feedback, poise and confidence that would make the competition envious. When people simply wanted to drive, BMW's M3 and M5 were the clear choice in their respective classes.

However, the new M5 with V10 engine and 500 horsepower has been plagued by electronic gizmos such as traction control that can't be disabled on the manual version and an SMG transmission that has taken away from the clarity and smoothness found in the E90 M5. The M5 has even lost to the Audi RS4 when tested by Edmunds.

A similar problem exists for the new E92 M3 with V8 and 420 horsepower. Instead of being hounded by electronic safety systems, the car simply has lost its edge when compared to the E46 M3. The handling is not as sharp, steering feel is not as communicative, exhaust is subdued and the car simply lacks the overall dynamic brilliance found in the E46 M3.

Meanwhile the boys at AMG have clearly stepped their game up two-notches with the new C63 AMG. The car has horsepower and torque that will allow it to be competitive and likely the winner in acceleration tests. The kicker is this time around AMG figured out how to make a car with phenomenal handling, feedback, poise and confidence that was missing from other go-fast straight-line AMGs that couldn't track nearly as well as the BMW M cars.

Audi has even stepped up with the RS4. Who would have ever thought an Audi RS4 cabriolet would be praised for having better handling than a BMW M3 coupe? It makes us wonder what will be in store for the BMW M3 when compared to the dramatically more dynamic C63 and even sharper RS4 sedan.

The CSL version will help the new M3, but it is likely to come at a price tag placing it in BMW M5 territory....

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david989 - 7/8/2007 7:37:07 PM

Show Comment -27 Boost

johnct - 7/8/2007 10:46:25 PM

+11 Boost

Since I am sure you have driven both the IS-F and the M3 I am glad you are in a position to explain you rationale in great detail. I am glad you are smarter then some of the idiots in here that have no basis for there blind brand loyalty.

Hwany - 7/8/2007 7:59:56 PM

+3 Boost

They are just reacting to the market.

Audi has moved down the "S" cars down and made "RS" models par with M and AMG cars. Usually, S cars were on par with M and AMG.

MB has made the blackseries which is a upper level of the AMG with a hefty price tag.

BMW is doing the same thing because of the price tag, it will more appear to the market because not even half of the M3 owners track their car at all.

FOr the hardcore enthusiats, there'll be CSL version which will make it to US, thankfully, for those of us who wants a true driver's car.

I guess its just all have to do with the market itself.
BMW is just adjusting to it.

reply to this comment

Hwany - 7/8/2007 8:00:45 PM

-2 Boost

I meant to say the BMW M3 will more apper to the luxury car market.

rom64 - 7/8/2007 9:53:41 PM

0 Boost

I think BMW planned this all along. A civil base M3 enough to please most, and a harder-edged upcoming M3 CSL premiering the 7-speed DSG for the purists bowing in the near future for the product range.

BMW M division has made aware of its large enthusiast target market following and is providing with this special niche specific to these individuals.

Heyhuub - 7/9/2007 9:58:37 AM

+2 Boost

S cars never competed with M.

1988 M3 - 215hp
1989 S2 - 210hp

1992 M5 - 340hp
1994 S6 - 280hp

1996 M3 - 286hp
1997 S4 - 265hp

1998 M5 - 400hp
1998 S6 - 340hp

2007 M3 - 420hp
2007 S5 - 354hp

rg12345 - 7/9/2007 1:34:55 PM

+1 Boost

Yeap, they never did. You forgot to add:

2007 M5 - 500hp
2007 S6 - 435hp

Still the S6 is considered better overall, but remember it was never conceived to fight against the 500hp of the M5. No, it is just a sportier A6, not an M5 beater. Overall S6 wins, somehow; Also the RS4 beats the M5, what next? RS6 is next.

rg12345 - 7/9/2007 1:43:45 PM

0 Boost

I also don't agree withguys saying the CSL is/was planned like this. Look at the price tag: the new M3 will fight directly to the C63 AMG. The CSL will fight with nobody, since there only so many cars only for track. I will never buy a car for that purpose only. I am sure some will, but that's why the CSL is limited. They have to limit it, making mass production will never sell (not at that huge price they will be asking for it).

It will be the M3 against the C63 AMG and the RS4/5.

If you don't like it cause it will loose, it doesn't mean it's not true. Look at the prices, they all match . Look at hp rating, they all match. They also go for the track/performance PLUS the luxury/comfort. So the CSL is not here, not between this category. Not when will come with no AC and no Radio and NO ELECTRIC windows. I want you to be cool when you stop by a girl and before you can talk to her you will have to roll the window down manually ... zip zip zip zip .. hahah..

henbmw - 7/13/2007 2:17:16 PM

+1 Boost

Heyhubb was actually correct.

The C5 RS6 (2002-2004) was designed to compete with the E39 M5 (1999-2003). Hence the RS6 and M5 had 450hp and 400hp respectively. The 2008/9 RS6 will then compete with the E60 M5 with its 500+ hp. The past B5/B6 S4, interestingly, did compete with its contemporary E46 M3.

johnct - 7/8/2007 8:06:24 PM

+1 Boost

How is BMW affraid of Lexus performance? I could appreciate if they were trying to stay ahead of AMG, Audi S line, or even the Caddy V-series, but Lexus needs to fire a bullet in the performance war before anyone should be worried. I hope Lexus doesn't use any of their F-1 features or they will be an also ran in production performance vehicles also.

As for BMW, it looks like the spritual successor to the M3 is going to be the 135. Lighter weight and smaller size are a performance combination that too many manufacters are forgetting.

reply to this comment

Lecsucks - 7/8/2007 10:22:18 PM

+2 Boost

LMAO. You talk like you have driven both cars. It's pathetic. Also, do you even own a M5. Remember that when BWM switched from a 4 cylinder to an inline 6 for the M3, the then new inline 6 M3 got the same kind of reviews. Instead of just repeating things you have no clue about, wait until you drive the car before posting some useless comment.

reply to this comment

investor27 - 7/8/2007 10:34:38 PM

+4 Boost

Everyone keeps commenting on how superb the handling is on the MB C63, but it's not even out yet. No one has test driven it, nor reviewed it. Save your judgment until the C63 is released...in Spring 08 at the earliest.

In the meantime, the new M3 is here and now for our immediate enjoyment.

reply to this comment

Qwazywabbit - 7/8/2007 11:28:24 PM

+3 Boost

Omg, multiple rational posts....

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Larry - 7/9/2007 12:05:20 AM

0 Boost

I don't know if something is wrong with M cars, they sell even though some Mercedes AMG are more powerful, But BMW are trend setters, Mercedes did not start taking their AMG cars serious until after the first M3, M5 and M6.

reply to this comment

valhallakey - 7/9/2007 2:18:14 AM

+3 Boost

I currently own an E39 M5, I drove an E55, E46 M3 and the Audi S4 wagon before making that choice... I have also owned a 95 E36 M3 and a 73 3.0 CSL. I must say from what I have read so far it does seem BMW is trying to be more things to more people. The move away from the driver centric dash was a defining moment (lets include the passenger more in the action??) to me. I will wait till it all falls out in further tests and a test drives myself (thinking of replacing the M5 with a 4 door M3) and if the car meets expectations and is still better than the competition. It takes many years of work perfecting the things that make a true drivers car, tactile feedback, nuanced handling at the limit, the feel of the controls, relationship of steering wheel, shifter, clutch/brake/accelerator etc... I sure hope BMW has not thrown out all this history trying to appeal to this theoretical larger audience. Lexus and company have a long way to go to get to that level IMHO but with BMW heading towards Lexus if could come sooner than I can imagine. Drove the IS 350 and it is a nice car but there are too many missing pieces that do take time and often multiple generations of cars to get right. In many ways it is the exact car the M3 or any BMW should not be. It was made to appeal to the many, and it does that in spades... good looks, decent handling when not really pushing it, plush high quality materials everywhere and everyone in the car enjoys it. The M3 should focus on the driver and then look at making the passengers happy as long as it does not interfere with what was done to make it a drivers car! Ramblings over... will just have to wait and see, test drive the new M3, the IS-F and others... see how they compare.

reply to this comment

SevorbeupstryIsBack - 7/9/2007 4:09:44 AM

+2 Boost

"The move away from the driver centric dash was a defining moment (lets include the passenger more in the action??) to me."

Same here. Now let's shoot Bangle.

M53R - 7/9/2007 9:49:36 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Bangle doesnt design the interior...

528i - 7/9/2007 2:20:07 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

E30 M3 ---> hardcore

E36 M3 ---> soft because there is a 4 door.

E46 M3 ---> hardcore

E92 M3 ---> soft because of the up coming 4 door.

Just what I think.

reply to this comment

d1sinfo - 7/9/2007 11:27:57 AM

+2 Boost

Seems everyone opinion of the M designation has its own twist. It seems to depend on both what your needs are, and how you maybe first experienced the M brand, and how you understand its principals.

I think defining M in your own mind by BMW's definition will allow you to be satisfied by the M cars. Defining it by pasts cars.... thats obviously a disapointment in the making. Cars are getting heavier, and more 'feature rich', no matter what you needs. Cars are getting heavier because of safety, size and performance. They are not getting heavier proportionate to speed/size/safety, in fact they are getting lighter if you include speed/size/safety in the equation.

So what I am trying to say is the M designation and brand is exactly as it was, but has changed proportionate to the times. Even Porsche made and SUV

On another note the M cars of the past are fabulous but they do get a kick in the pants from the nostalgic mentality. The snow was neck high when I was a kid, and in those days e30 m3's were lighter than a swallow, and faster than lightning. It just wasn't so. The e30 m3 is a great platform, but it is no miracle car. Soft and flexible in almost every way compared to todays standards. Similar complaints can be said regarding the e36 and e46. Hell the us spec e36 seemed like an IS model in my mind.

The way it was is remembered with a cloud of nostalgia, and the way it is and the way it is going is seen through a cloud of skepticism, and criticism based partially on truth and partially on 'i remember when blah blah blah'

Josh

adoptgreyhounds - 7/9/2007 6:05:30 PM

+1 Boost

OK the E30 the 1st M3 was a saloon, all M3's are based on saloon cars. Coupe is a shape not the # of doors. The E39 M5 was a saloon and considerd the best road car of all time, but by your logic it's too soft.
If you want hardcore buy a Lotus Elise.

M316 - 7/9/2007 7:59:49 PM

+1 Boost

Its soft because it has 4 doors. That makes a lotta sense.

matt635 - 7/9/2007 5:18:00 AM

+1 Boost

If it's hardcore 50% of people say it's too edgy and harder to live with everyday than some of the competition...

... so they make it softer, then the other 50% complains it's too soft and M GmbH have lost their way ... so they make it edgy agian......

and so it goes on...

If it is BMW's plan to make a CSL then I think they'll do alright with the M3... if not not - well I'm sure they will still sell truck loads of them! Let's not forget that just because this is not as good as the E46 M3 -- which is an excellent car -- it doesn't mean to say it's a bad car.

reply to this comment

M53R - 7/9/2007 9:47:19 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Wasnt the E46 M3 accused of being softer than the model it replaced? Well if you haters just use your brains now you would know its the samething happening here. Did the E46 M3 lose to the competition because it had a softer suspension than the model it replaces? NO. Now wait and see the performance numbers before you make random judgements.

GermanNut

The C55 did not handle half as close as the E46 M3, so obviously AMG improved that in the C63. So OBVIOUSLY if they had a bad handler to start with, any improvement over that makes it better. The E46 was a hardcore M3, there is not that much space for improvement. Also remember the E92 has grown in size. Judge when the performance numbers are out. And if your not happy with the performance, wait for the CSL.

How come you just appear out of no where when the M3 bashing starts? Is it just an incident?

reply to this comment

rg12345 - 7/9/2007 1:48:32 PM

+3 Boost

Sorry pel, the C63 with 467 hp is no incident, is created to defeat the M3. Yeap, you just wait for the numbers on the M3, others will wait for the numbers from the AMG. Rear drive, excellent handling, brand new car: both cars, right? What do they have different? 30-40 hp more in the MB. Yeap, just wait for the numbers.

M53R - 7/11/2007 1:40:46 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

This is so pathetic.

HOLD ON! If the C63 has more hp does this mean its better than the M3? Even a better performer?

BMW995 - 7/9/2007 2:05:35 PM

+1 Boost

Thanks, Valhallakey. One of the more intelligent posts I've seen here.
True BMW aficionados should wait for the 135i coupe. Then it's back to what BMW used to stand for, and in spades with this car!

reply to this comment

d1sinfo - 7/10/2007 11:48:03 AM

+1 Boost

You my friend are what you have always been an instigating ass.

The 2002, 3.0csl, 507, 323i, M535i, M1 and following M cars are the pudding which holds the proof. I respect years of motoring journalism over your limited perspective obviously highly influenced by your own cloudy paradigms.

Josh

reply to this comment

d1sinfo - 7/10/2007 11:50:18 AM

+1 Boost

While your reconsidering the ideas you know why not look into Nissan, and Nismo. Look at how they have based there business model, and there hopes for there brand and engineering.

You might be surprised. They look up to the M division of BMW.

Josh

reply to this comment

germeezy2 - 7/9/2007 10:16:09 PM

+1 Boost

I can't wait to send my first E90 M3 into the rearview!

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Yonder7 - 7/9/2007 11:33:07 PM

+1 Boost

Is better to wait for the numbers. In that way amazinBimmer will have some data to talk about. Untill now the only thing that he is able to say is moron, becase he have nothing more.
Heyhuub Power does not means that M3 is better, because if that is your reasoning then most of the Mercedes are better than any bimmer. Specialy the AMGs. Power is not all thats why Bimmers are so good on the track. However the new engine that will use the M3 is is just a happy reving engine and thats all. Even the 335i have more torque. Sorry dude, it's a weak engine.

reply to this comment

Heyhuub - 7/10/2007 10:10:59 AM

+1 Boost

I didn't say that power meant it is better. I just said that the Audi s line isn't made to directly compete with th M cars in the first place.

JTRacer - 7/12/2007 5:25:56 PM

+1 Boost

Cant believe you guys are arguing which grocery
getter is faster.

And since when does the E46 M3s have the "edge"??

reply to this comment

TALCOTT - 7/12/2007 8:23:38 PM

+1 Boost

Would you really want a car that is a part of Chrysler, or would you want a car that's apart of Rolls Royce? BMW...........the last independently owned car mfg. Chrysler? What was Mercedes thinking?

reply to this comment

edeme - 7/13/2007 2:01:42 PM

+1 Boost

For what it's worth:

1986 735i
3505 lbs.
193.3 inches in length
72.6 width
55.6 height

2007 335i
3595 lbs.
178.2 length
71.2 width
55.9 height

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