45 Votes

What’s a Badge Worth to You, Are You Paying For The Car Or The Name?

Agent009 submitted on 5/21/2008 Official Bell & Ross Timestamp: 1:46:32 PM

75 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: | SOURCE: editorial.autos.msn.com

Here’s a question that buyers of top-shelf, name-in-lights cars usually don’t care to confront: How much are you paying for the car, and how much for the brand-name badge? There’s no doubt that companies such as BMW, Porsche and even Toyota can charge more than their main competitors.

To a point, that’s only fair. Build compelling cars, create a reputation over decades, and people will happily scribble the checks.

The only problem is when a company starts to coast, slowing to admire its fine self in the rearview mirror. When that happens today, you can be sure a hungry underdog will race up and bite them in the, um, rear fascia. These David vs. Goliath smack downs are great not only for car buyers, but for the companies themselves. In recent months, some Korean and Japanese companies have been wielding the slingshots against the big boys. If they pull it off, it won’t be the first time.

Special thanks to "answer" for the tip!

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What’s a Badge Worth to You, Are You Paying For The Car Or The Name?

About the Author

"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
— Agent009 (View Profile)

User Comments

You're welcome.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 2:15:51 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

It's all about the marketing guys hyping up the product as if it were bigger than life itself. I just turned in a leased A6 Quattro and test drove a new Passat a few days later. Audi seats are among the most comfortable in the industry but the new Passat has even more comfortable seats. It also has all the amenities and luxury features that my Audi had for about $20K less in Canada. Guess which car makes better sense to buy.

I can hardly wait to physically touch and feel the new Hyundai Genesis. I'm sure it would cost me less than half the price of a brand new left-over S-Class I saw in the Mercedes showroom yesterday.

Hyping the brand still works but today's savvy customers are more concerned about life-cycle cost and the ease with which they can do business. The time has come for convenient factory-to-retail-customer Internet sales with full disclosure about price, incentives, etc.
— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 2:33:50 PM | | Votes: 0

For Euros a lot of the badge is long tradition, and innovation and advantages over other brands.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:51:52 PM | | Votes: 6

As a salesman, image is everything to me, I have to be seen driving a MB or BMW! Horrible interiors, I know, but from the outside, people think I made it, eventhough I literally live paycheck to paycheck and am up to my ass in debt.

— EI34 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 7:24:26 AM | | Votes: 0

if youre really telling the truth here EI(EL)34, then youre a complete dolt.
— lexusrox123 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 8:51:44 AM | | Votes: 2

Yup,EI34 telling D true to American...
— hao420 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 12:22:26 AM | | Votes: 1

This article is a bit far reaching... "At a bargain $35,000, the resulting Lexus LS 400 sedan not only undercut the price of the Mercedes-Benz S-Class by a shocking $25,000, it trumpeted a message that Japan could and would build successful luxury cars."

Anyone who thinks an LS400 even approached the Mercedes W140 is completely nuts in the head. Comparing the two is just la-la. It competed squarely with the likes of W124 and E34 and while well made, did not at all "wake Mercedes from a fairyland slumber." There is absolutely no basis in saying that a car as magnificent as the W124 was built in some sort of slumber.
— Threepoint1415926 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 2:20:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

Then it's interesting to note that almost all car magazines of the day compared the LS400 to the S-class and 7 series and placed it ahead of these two. Don't you remember? It was faster, quieter, better built, cheaper, had more features (remember TRAC?), better interior.
— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 3:48:47 PM | | Votes: 3

I do remember, in fact I still own a lot of them. The only articles I have of the LS being compared to the S class is the W126, a then 10 year old design!!! Against the W140 it was none of those things you mentioned (sans faster if the Mercedes was equip with the 6cyl) I have plenty of articles, on the other hand, more like this: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/112_9502_luxury_sedans/luxurious_superluxurious.html placing the E-class squarely in the LS's targets.

Wish I could find my scan from road and track... dont care to scan again. But it has the Caddy, 540i, LS400 and 400E
— Threepoint1415926 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 6:29:49 PM | | Votes: -1

It's worth the same amount it take to build the badge and placing it on the car. Maybe less.
— Brembo (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 2:21:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

If the BMW decided to label 3 series as Taurus and cost like a ford Taurus and drive like BMW, I'll be first line to buy 2 of them.
— Brembo (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 2:25:50 PM | | Votes: 4

And, half the lime, the badge is an unsymmetrical piece of junk art. I hate the Lexus "L".
— EnnNorak (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 2:35:28 PM | | Votes: 3

there are times when the vehicle itself TRANSCENDS the badge. as a person with visual sophistication, i think the acura and mb logos look better than lexus'. yet i'd choose most lexus models over the competing acura or mb.

imho, those who put undue emphasis on just the design of the logo are the ULTIMATE BADGE WHORES. (uh-oh. incoming!)

— ChicaneShooter (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 2:58:54 AM | | Votes: 4

I made a bet with myself that this article was posted by 009.

Here's a summary of what's to come:

BMW vs. Lexus

*end of thread
— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 2:48:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8

Nothing wrong with wanting to invest your hard earned money on a reliable, luxurious, stylish and easy to own vehicle - that's what you'll get in a Lexus.

But signing on the dotted line thinking you've just purchased the "Ultimate Driving Machine", well you're either delusional or a badge whore, or maybe both :)
— sector (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 3:46:30 PM | | Votes: -14

^^^^You are dead wrong. Investing your money in a re-badged POS Toyota is never a good move. The car enthusiasts know that so they always prefer to go after masterpieces built by BMW and Mercedes instead of the poorly made Japanese c**p. A real car enthusiast would buy a car regardless of the badge as long as that car DRIVES like a BMW, Mercedes or Porsche.
A Lexus car wearing a BMW badge would still be the same worthless POS car. A BMW car with a Yugo badge would still be the same amazing driver's car. There is a reason for which the BMW badge is so much more respected than the Lexus badge. It is called SUPERIOR ENGINEERING.
— Star (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:37:50 PM | | Votes: 3

Actually is was submitted by "answer"
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:52:42 PM | | Votes: 4

Then why are you at the top of the thread?
— M35MT (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 5:19:17 PM | | Votes: 7

as usual, BrownStar is spewing out verbal diarrhea.
— ChicaneShooter (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:04:28 AM | | Votes: 2

I have fixed many different cars from all brands the expensive cars are more expensive for a reason. The part quality and design are much better in the more expensive cars. Rotors on some cars come in a plastic bag filled with oil so they don't rust. Rotors on more expensive cars usually come in box with no oil necessary because the metal is an alloy that doesn't rust very fast.
— kpaxx (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 3:01:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 10

And I totaly agree with you.Open a engine on a cheeper car and compare it to for instance a Mercedes and you will see a differance like night and day.
— simmonsdp (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:11:59 PM | | Votes: 7

i dont care what anybody says, the badge is probably a great chunk of what affects our decisions to buy a luxury car.

seriously...its for middle upper class families to tell everyone else that they are well off.

how do i know? because deep down, i do it too. if i didnt care, i would be driving a prius right now since its gas friendly and its cheap to buy at just 25K. why am i driving a lexus thats 50K? well to enjoy myself for one, but also because its a lexus :D
— LexusKindaGuy12 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 3:09:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

you sum a lot of it up correctly. Image is a big factor for many.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:53:50 PM | | Votes: 6

and "because it's a lexus" is due to all the marketing and hype of the brand. it's direct target was the US consumer and boy did they do well! I give them props!
— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 8:26:34 PM | | Votes: 3

"and "because it's a lexus" is due to all the marketing and hype of the brand."

a mere HALF-right platitude often parroted by jealous fans of other brands who are usually half-wits.

despite the modest asking prices, toyotas are the BEST BUILT cars on the planet. the fact that toyota kept the upscale models at home and exported mostly econoboxes initially, unfortunately made most non-japanese think ALL toyotas were inexpensive cars.

the Lexus brand was created mainly to end run this image.

fancy trimmings aside, the difference in build quality and durability between toyotas and lexi are MINIMAL to non-existent. THAT'S how good toyotas are. but most people outside japan are still stuck with the 'econobox' IMAGE. (this is also the reason why until recently, they were successful just re-badging american market Lexi AS TOYOTAS there!)

so yes, marketing IS a major factor in lexus' success. which would have occurred REGARDLESS. (just as toyota's climb to the top was inevitable, over a longer time scale.)

but there is NO HYPE. BOTH toyotas AND lexi are the best put together cars on the planet. they can be run TEN YEARS LONGER than any other mgfr's vehicles before getting the same RATE of problems per 100.

i COULD afford to buy a lexus if i wanted one. but i am perfectly happy with a toyota. and am able to own TWO of 'em for less money!

— ChicaneShooter (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:22:56 AM | | Votes: 0

Badge does make a difference. IIRC, the Chrysler Crossfire is very similar to a Mercedes CLK. You can get low mileage examples of the Chrysler for ~$13k. Even the 330 hp Crossfire SR-T 6 is very reasonable used at under $20k.

Sure, I'd rather have the Merc as any sane person would, but still I belive the Chrysler is priced under it's potential value if it's badge didn't bring down the product.
— Shredmo (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 3:37:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Yes, SLK, sorry.
— Shredmo (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 3:51:43 PM | | Votes: 4

Except you left out the fact that the Chrysler is hideously ugly. (and i'm not anti-Chrysler - for a while, they were making great looking cars).
— Hachee2001 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 12:51:25 PM | | Votes: 2

What kind of stupid article is this? This a car enthusiast website. There will be the odd few who are truly badge whores, but the majority among us buy our cars because they genuinely fit our lifestyles.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 3:40:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

It's worth talking about, but I'd hope most people subscribe to your opinion.
— Shredmo (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 3:53:09 PM | | Votes: 5

Well it is a way to discuss the reasons we buy.

Some people equate reliability as luxury feature, while others exclusive,. Yet other are willing to sacrifice root origin for a massaging seat.

No matter how you view it, you buy for a reason. Either lifestyle, affordability, or performance or some combination.

Some of the Lexus owners I know, were very happy with their prior Toyotas and felt a sense of loyalty in buying a Lexus for instance. I guess once you feel you are in good hands then you do not want to stray. There is nothing wrong with that.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:02:55 PM | | Votes: 0

buy cars because they fit our lifestyles?

there are obviously more than 1 choice

ie. Highlander versus RX- why pay the extra 10K for the lexus if it has the same engine and basically the same hauling capacity

ie. Why buy a land cruiser versus LX570?
ie. Why buy a single luxury car since a lower brand can make the same thing? dont they all "fit" in the same category in our lifestyles?
— LexusKindaGuy12 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:46:33 PM | | Votes: -1

Very few of the articles deal with enthusiast topics. The ones that do usually end up being "----- is better than -----" regurgitations.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:47:43 PM | | Votes: 2

exusKindaGuy12 - they all can fit your lifestyle. But the Lexus name says you "made it", in a much better way than merely Toyota.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:56:42 PM | | Votes: 2

answer- I behind you on the article. It makes a valid point.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:57:36 PM | | Votes: 4

i agree S4. this is another stupid post
— KZ258 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 5:20:16 PM | | Votes: 2

LexusKindaGuy, the RX350 vs. Highlander isn't a good example, because not all luxury cars are based off less expensive counterparts, and if they are most have better drivetrains. At this point though, I might actually take a Highlander over an RX because the RX is in need of a redesign.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 6:43:24 PM | | Votes: 3

My friend's dad works at a factory that makes emblems, symbols and such for certain cars. It's worth approx. $10 :)
— SoSnootySo (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 4:24:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

I don't give a damn about a badge. I want something with good history, unique, fitting my needs, and well-engineered. there are so many badge whores here that they'd rather be pimps and impress whores and etc than brag about having fun on the track. I like benzes and bmws, but everyone makes very irrelevant statements about them than the cars themselves. if theres a car just as good as the a 911, or ferrari, then it deserves respect. I just can't believe the mentality in these forums.
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 5:10:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 8

I don't think the Germans or even Lexus or Infiniti have to worry that the Genesis is going to undercut them. However, Acura should be watching very closely. And speaking of Acura, why can't Honda find good designers? I once owned an Acura, but today I wouldn't be caught dead in their fugly cars with the beaver tooth grills. And Honda...How ugly is the new 2009 Pilot? Honda is a wonderful engineering company and it's Acura brand could have so much potential. Why can't they do better? Luxury cars have to be art as well as engineering.
— robertb (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 5:22:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

Badges, I don't need no stinking badges!

Of course unless it's a Ferrari badge which I'm sure all the morons that buy the LF-A thingy will have.

:-/
— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 5:26:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

Please re-explain, what you said above does not make sense? Please use proper grammar next time.

:-/
— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 9:33:04 AM | | Votes: 3

That kid still in ESL...
— hao420 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 12:25:10 AM | | Votes: 1

I am paying for the car of the badge.... Mercedes Benz will forever mean peace and so far owning 2 S-classes i have loved them and no matter how hard Lexus tries to defeat it... sure it may have redefined it's prestige and natural aspects.... but it will never define my love for a Mercedes Benz
— shabaru (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 7:28:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

People need to keep it real and be honest with themselves and everyone else; the badge means everything. Some companies are only still alive and in existence because of their badge, and the 'reputation' that goes with it. Two perfect examples are toyota and m-b.

Neither company offers anything that's superior to their direct competition. For example, there is NO reason in this world the e should be outselling the infiniti m, or the camry should be outselling the altima. No good reason anyway; it's simply the badge.

— tattedtwice (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 7:57:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

What in the hell is Kia in the cover page for this listing , those are JD Byryder cars that have a buy here pay dept. to help sell the Korean rust outs
— toolatetorace (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 10:01:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Lets just say you wouldn't see too many people buying a $500,000 Phantom if it had a Kia emblem on it.
— filthyrich (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 11:01:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

if kia made spectacularly lavish, hand-built cars with insane amounts of power and a body that dwarfs everything else, then your point would have merit.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 1:39:47 AM | | Votes: 1

great brands are built on GREAT PRODUCT.

bmw, mercedes, etc. didn't just spring out of the air and command massively premium prices.

once the products don't live up the buyer's priorities (i.e. power, handling, quality, whatever), the brand goes to crap.

so as thinking human beings, we buy brands that meet our priorities.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/21/2008 11:59:27 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

MB admitted to quality issues but it did not send their brand to crap. Same with Toyota so I would have to disagree. They have a reputation that appears to defeat the quality issues.
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 9:18:03 AM | | Votes: 1

read above again.

it's all about what the buyer prioritizes. personally, i won't give up handling and great looks for a marginal amount of so-called quality.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 12:03:17 PM | | Votes: -1

and you're right, mercedes stood for innovation, great style, and safety. so when the brand slipped in quality in '02 and '03, sales continued to RISE.

on the other hand, toyota stands for quality (but immensely boring) cars. when quality slipped, sales dropped off significantly.
— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 12:05:46 PM | | Votes: -2

Did sales drop or did we hit a recession?
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 5:21:33 PM | | Votes: 3

"Lifestyle" is actually a very important reason for me. I'm a business broker and the products I sell are assets worth between $1 million to $10 million. Guess what? When I show up to an investor's door for the first time in a Mercedes S Class, he KNOWS I'm good at what I do. What does it say to him when I show up in a Toyota Avalon asking him to hand over $5 million?

I HAVE TO drive something that is "obviously" expensive in the $85,000-$100,000 range because simply stated: in business, image is EVERYTHING. Yes, that means you wear a custom tailored suit, a Patek/Rolex/etc. gold watch, and the most expensive pair of shoes you can afford.

I'm not advertising "I've made it" to my neighbors, I need to advertise my success to prospective business clients who want to take part in my success by working with me - it's that simple. The badge plays a very important role in "certifying" that the driver really does know what he's doing ergo he can afford to buy this fancy car (even if it's a lease he can barely afford, but you gotta "fake it until you make it".
— quizz (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 1:50:11 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

The car badges predicts engineering and technology, BUT:
Lexus has same engineering and technology with Toyota. The engineers, the suppliers, the factoriesa nd the used materials are same. Once a Toyota engineer working on Toyota later on Lexus. The mindset of these people are not change.
Usually the other manufacturers have different engineering and factories for luxury and volume brands.
Means, you cannot recognize real differences between Lexus and Toyota, terrible brake performances (lot of problems!!), LONG TERM quality declining...
The luxury brand means individual mindest from vehicle development till ownership. This is what the traditional luxury manufacturers can do, (BMW, Porsche, Lambo, Aston...) and Toyota and co. try to copy.
— deepwater (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 2:23:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

you have a good BASIC point, but your argument would have been far more convincing if you used VW and Audi in your example.

toyota and lexus are NOT applicable in this argument at all. because the basic engineering and build quality of toyotas MATCH or EXCEED any other manufacturer's.

lexus does shares the same engineering and assembly process, which is ALREADY first rate anyway. and it does add more luxury and other features. (the most costly being the multi-step hand polishing of the paint on LS models.)

you mite find the book "The Machine that Changed the World" instructive. this summarized a 5-year M.I.T. study of auto assembly plants across the world. they support your basic point: the assembly process, paint booths, etc. etc. are NO DIFFERENT in mb, audi, bmw, AND vw plants. maybe mb uses a heavier gage steel, and adds more electronic toys. but the assembly PROCESS and most basic parts are NO DIFFERENT.

the reason why toyota/lexus is NOT a good example, is that toyota itself SURPASSES THE GERMANS and EVERYONE ELSE in the METHOD (lean production) and QUALITY of assembly. unlike nearly every other mfgr, they also DO NOT automatically write contracts with the suppliers who submit the lowest bid.

the mfgrs whose bean counters dictate contracts always going to the lowest bidders, end up putting together vehicles that are assemblages of THE CHEAPEST PARTS. this is why most mfgrs' vehicles have 100 problems/100 cars in 5 years or less. toyotas/lexi take SEVENTEEN (17) years to get to that problem/failure rate.

— ChicaneShooter (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:58:22 AM | | Votes: 1

Chicaneshooter- Just because Toyota and Lexus have arguably the best assembly process, does not mean they have the best engineering. Assembly is one part of the overall equation.

Toyota and Lexus cars share a much simpler architecture than say VW and Audi, who build on modular platforms which are far more flexible.

So yes if you refine the assembly process you can make TONS of money on the bottom line (which Toyota does well) and still create a quality product. I think everyone agrees that Toyota makes some of the best assembled cars out there for what they are.

The problem is the compromises to make it profitable and easy to assemble, plus the engineering philosophy used to get there are valid points to consider.

Take cars out of the equation here.

The US Space Shuttle is an excellent example of precision and complexity; it regularly performs workhorse and complex functions flawlessly. However the Soviet equivalents are built to a far less degree of precision, and are far less complex and perform the less complicated tasks reliably.

As well all are aware the more complex Shuttle has had two major and costly failures due to its complexity. The Soviets have fared far better in this regard. So which is the better machine? Is it the reliable but tank like Soviet vehicle, or the ultra complex and flexible Shuttle? One has reliability in spades and the other it more like a Swiss army knife taking on numerous tasks with ease.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 8:42:56 AM | | Votes: -2

009, why is your dislike of Toyota/Lexus so thick!?! What did they do to you. Its ok to not like a brand, (I am not that fond of Kia) but I realize that and understand that my comments towards that brand may be biased based upon my dislikes therefore I minimize my comments regarding them. We are all aware that you do not like Toyota or Lexus, we got that. Give it a rest already! Geez!
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 9:26:01 AM | | Votes: 3

And reading your last comments, what is it that makes Toyota whatever metaphor you used and VW a swiss army knife? What can VW do that Toyota cant other than build a decent looking car (that was a joke)?
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 9:29:15 AM | | Votes: 1

0-60 - My Lexus fun facts:

The only car that left me on the side of the road in the last 20 years was a RX350. Did it twice, both times being towed to the dealer, finally forced back to Lexus under the Lemon Law courtesy of the fine people at the Texas Attorney Generals office. Dealt with it for over 2 years.

The only car since I have ever owned since the 70’s that had paint peel was a LS. The leather looked like crap after 3 years seams actually tearing. Car was sold after 3 years, however it ran well and reliably.

By contrast I have a daily beater a 1998 A4 in the stable with 173K on it. Runs great is on the second clutch, burns no oil, and overall repairs over the last 2 years were less than $1K,.Inside looks absolutely new, and pint is in great shape. By listening to some on the site this car should have been dead at 20k.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 4:00:39 PM | | Votes: 0

so much for lexus quality...

"By contrast I have a daily beater a 1998 A4 in the stable with 173K on it. Runs great is on the second clutch, burns no oil, and overall repairs over the last 2 years were less than $1K,.Inside looks absolutely new, and pint is in great shape. By listening to some on the site this car should have been dead at 20k."

I was so close to getting one with a stick... oh well.
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 4:31:37 PM | | Votes: -1

Im the opposite. My BMW gave me a lot of trouble from major electrical problems to stuff leaking. My lexus holds up VERY well. Never had a problem. Only thing I did was put a timing belt on it and change the spark plugs. But that was apart of the regualar maintenance. It has 180k miles on it and still goes. No problems at all. Well the radio display is all blacked out but that is it. Its been wreaked a couple times but still goes. Never a problem. Not 1. Gave it to my parents and they have yet to change the oil in it but it still goes (knock on wood). I would never attempt that in a BMW. I finally had to just sell it to a dealer needing about $3000 in electrical work amoungst other things. The only other car I held that broke down on me was a Chryler Cirrus. I owned that car all of 2 days before trading it for a Civic. Never had a problem out of my civic either. Just had to change the belts around 120k miles. I did have a few probs out of my Honda accord. The CV joints broke when I got it used at 45k miled (a 98 in 2000) and they went out again at 110k miles. Additionally the Boot near the cv joint messed up around 125k miles and had to be replaced. The paint on that is starting to fade but the other cars are just as shiny as they were new including the lexus. The interior actually held up well in the lexus too. Everyone I know with Lexus vehicles have yet to have problems out of them. And I know quite a few ppl with them.
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 5:15:07 PM | | Votes: 1

Also, I gave the Honda back to my parents when I left to for college my last couple of years and the oil gets changed in the thing maybe once every 50k miles but never any engine or transmission problems. All CV joint type stuff and thats it. Not I did have a used 93 J30 that also had problems. The Bose Radio was a nightmare and it also had minor electrical mishaps. The only issues with the engine and trans was the belt which had to be replaced due to squeaking and the alternator went bad. I did hear of transmission probs in the early 90's version Q's.
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 5:19:27 PM | | Votes: 0

Also, I gave the Honda back to my parents when I left to for college my last couple of years and the oil gets changed in the thing maybe once every 50k miles but never any engine or transmission problems. All CV joint type stuff and thats it. Not I did have a used 93 J30 that also had problems. The Bose Radio was a nightmare and it also had minor electrical mishaps. The only issues with the engine and trans was the belt which had to be replaced due to squeaking and the alternator went bad. I did hear of transmission probs in the early 90's version Q's.
— 0to60 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 5:19:28 PM | | Votes: 1

every BMW is clearly worth 5000 more than MSRP. so its already a bargain to begin with.
— gsh23 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 12:33:56 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

gsh23,

You mean like the Euro is higher than the Dollar so you're paying a premium for no other reason than because you're living in the U.S.?
— quizz (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 9:31:17 PM | | Votes: 0

no, BMWs are worth 5000 less than MSRP. You don't know this but, if you take a critical look at each BMW vehicle, it is apparent the company has gone through it with a fine tooth comb to shave costs. They look at everything and ask themselves "will people buy it for the same cost if we do this? or remove this?" etc. so the end result is the horrible outdated 80's interior that needed a redesign 10 yrs ago, and run-flat tires (to remove the need for spare), leatherette instead of the real thing, no alarm system as standard, no dip-stick, etc, etc... now you're saving $5 here, $50 there, and another $500 there... soon it's thousands more profit for each unit.

That's the way of your beloved BMW my friends... deal with it :)

— sector (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 12:33:01 AM | | Votes: 0

But it's the "ultimate driving machine"! You have an interesting point on cost cutting, and I agree to an extent. I owned a 330Ci and love how that thing drove, truly a drivers' car. BUT, the door stripping that came loose after 5000 miles and the AM radio that didn't work and the climate control that was inconsistent were annoying. Nevertheless, easily the best handling car I've owned short of a Boxster.

BMW knows where to focus their spending to cater to the priorities of its supporters.
— quizz (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 9:16:19 AM | | Votes: 1

rupert: "You can't just convert prices in other countries into American dollars - for example, the S65 AMG in Britain is nearly 300,000 dollars (145,000 pounds), and the LS600h is 160000 dollars (85,000 pounds). You can't use your own judgment of how much something is worth in another country based on the exchange rate."

i did not come up with those prices by converting exchange rates. those were the reported GOING PRICES according to the article, to the best of my recall. i was surprised myself, but given toyota/lexus' reputation (everywhere BESIDES western europe it seems), and again, the mass of new millionaires and billionaires in china, i can well believe the article was not exaggerating.

in any GIVEN locale, THE MARKET sets the price (not mere exchange rates), determined by the number of potential buyers accepting or rejecting asking prices. for ANY product in high demand and limited supply, sellers can and do ask for whatever the market will bear.

at one time, rolls royce was in financial trouble. they had set their prices by what they traditionally asked, with appropriate adjustments as time went on. a marketing consultant told them in essence, "You are rolls royce. you can ask WHATEVER you want. there need be NO relation between your set price, and YOUR COSTS or traditional prices."

so they immediately upped the stickers by some $75-100k. and there was NO buyer resistance. because they were RR.

now Lexus MAY be taking a gamble, in assuming there WILL be buyers at the asking price. yet from that article, they've likely found there IS a market for their premium cars at that level.

it is further entirely conceivable that in china, russia, and elsewhere, Lexus is fast approaching the level of RR in prestige. in which case, there will NOT be the 'value' critics/shoppers there are here. and lexus can ask WHATEVER they want.

if demand stays ahead of production (as happened with the toyota prius for a few years, and the initial run of ls600hl) they very likely WILL GET a buyer for every single car they make. in which case, kudos to them!
as mentioned above, being made of carbon fiber, more than a few buyers will feel the car IS A BARGAIN at a mere $225k.

the car winning its class at the last Nurburgring race also ESTABLISHES its cred.

and, the mere fact that it will be MORE EXCLUSIVE than ferraris and lambos for many years will itself attract certain buyers. as with RR customers, PRICE WILL BE NO OBJECT for these kind of buyers. and again, a 'mere' $225k WILL seem a true bargain!

people who've criticized the genius of toyota and lexus MARKETING (yes! but based on good analyses) have A HISTORY of later having to eat their words.

— ChicaneShooter (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 5:19:19 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

It is funny that the real badge whores(buyers of pseudo-luxury Japanese brands like Lexus, Infiniti or Acura)think that people buy BMW or Mercedes for the badge when the things are exactly the other way around.
We, the true car enthusiasts don't want to pay for re-badged Japanese economy cars that come with luxury appointments but also with poor engineering and cheap materials. For the same amount of money we prefer to give up a few useless gadgets in exchange for the highest level of engineering available on cars today...the German engineering. It is incredible that there are still people around here who don't understand that a Mercedes with cloth seats is still a phenomenal luxury car while a Lexus IS(re-badged Corolla)that comes with leather standard is just a well optioned economy car.
For the car enthusiast the driving experience and the quality of engineering are priorities. That's the reason for which these so called "premium" Japanese cars never end up in a garage owned by such enthusiast.
— Star (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 10:36:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3

You don't know much do you.
— flozel1 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 4:31:21 PM | | Votes: 2

you sound more like a blind german fanboy than a "real car enthusiast".
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 4:49:02 PM | | Votes: 3

Kraut,
Europeans usually can't afford homes, so of course they have to settle for a badge on their tuna can car.

Too bad for the Germans that yuppies are a dying breed (guess that's what happens when they don't have kids to carryon the German only tradition). Atleast there are still fobs to fall back on, that is until their parents cut them off.

It really all comes down to self-esteem though. Those with it don't need a badge.
— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/24/2008 3:11:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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