	Agent009 "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
	View My AgentSpace

Who Are The Top Dogs Of The Automotive Pack?

Agent009 submitted on 02/25/2008 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 2:13 PM
from: www.businessweek.com

[100] user comments | category: Misc News

Print this Page |

Digg It |

del.icio.us

Who Are The Top Dogs Of The Automotive Pack?

The US auto industry is the ultimate dog-eat-dog world.

This Darwinism only gets tougher when the industry enters a downturn. Forecasts for 2008 predict the worst sales in a decade, at just below 16 million light vehicles—that is, passenger cars and light trucks such as pickups, minivans, SUVs, and crossovers, not counting medium and heavy trucks including 18-wheelers.

Even the top brands—BMW (BMWG), Mercedes-Benz (DAI), Honda (HMC), and Toyota (TM)—are constantly jockeying for position, coveting each other's turf.

BMW had record sales in 2007, but still wishes its flagship 7 Series commanded as much prestige as the Mercedes-Benz flagship S-Class. Mercedes-Benz had record sales, too, but wishes its entry-level C-Class had the fun-to-drive factor—not to mention the sales volume—of BMW's dominant 3 Series.

And you wouldn't think mighty Toyota has much to worry about, now that it's the world's largest automaker. But as they say in Japan: "The nail that sticks up gets hit."
Read Article

Comments:

Images hosted in your AgentSpace can now be posted in the comments section using the following syntax (case matters):
[img]IMAGE URL[/img]
Example: [img]http://agent004.myautospies.com/users/150/Sample-Gallery/sample1.JPG[/img]

07G35J - 2/25/2008 2:21:33 PM

+21 Boost

Is that a Mercury Grand Marquis in that picture???
Talk about lame picture choices!!!

reply to this comment

daytonaviolet - 2/25/2008 2:34:26 PM

+19 Boost

Mercury does lead the pack in the 'Oldest Customers' and 'Most Dated Designs' segments.

KZ258 - 2/25/2008 6:17:01 PM

+4 Boost

LOL

Porschinator - 2/26/2008 10:21:39 PM

+2 Boost

Most definitely...lol. Has to be the worst current model design out there. For the 70 and over crowd or people that are die hard 1980's fans...hehe.

Whelan - 2/25/2008 2:36:48 PM

-14 Boost

I can see it now, how many people are going to rail on Lexus cause its called Luxry and cause it's #1 in sales. Again, I do not take sides on this one, just pointing out what's to come.

As for me, I like Mazda a lot, and if they offered an AWD version of the 3, I would have picked up a 5 speed hatch in no time. The MS3 is a hot little hatch as well. But I took the Matrix (slower) but the AWD was needed.

reply to this comment

1995e34 - 2/25/2008 3:05:35 PM

+13 Boost

mazda offers an awd mazda3. it's known as the volvo s40 awd.

M35MT - 2/25/2008 4:36:52 PMView My AgentSpace

+9 Boost

Should have got the speed3...I'm very happy with the little devil.

>:)

Whelan - 2/25/2008 5:17:47 PM

+5 Boost

Volvo was a little out of my price range. I was looking at pre-owned 20k or less. Can't really get a Volvo optioned how I want it for that price. The 05 Matrix fits the bill pretty well, I gave up on too much speed. Granted my 02 Civic was not a rocket, but it got me around pretty well.

S4cabriofoxone - 2/25/2008 6:31:39 PMView My AgentSpace

+13 Boost

"Lexus is pretty much number one in the US and growing rapidly globally."

They're steadily declining in US sales, which is essentially their entire sales base. BMW continues to go up.

Willis - 2/25/2008 7:55:29 PM

+6 Boost

Lexus sales in Japan have been pretty low. Only the LS460 seems to have been well received.

XYZZ - 2/26/2008 1:59:09 AM

-6 Boost

"Even the Japanese customers do know that the German cars are far superior to Toyota's luxury wannabe brand called Lexus."

WRONG!

lexus sales INCREASE in japan equaled the DROP in german lux sales. AND THEN SOME.

and everyone there knows despite the plethora of low and mid-level TOYOTAS, high-end toyotas and lexi far surpass any euro or american brand. the latter two sell ONLY on the cachet of being 'foreign.'

Willis - 2/26/2008 7:33:26 AM

+2 Boost

XYZZ is so misinformed. Sometimes I wonder if these Toyota/Lexus marketing companies pump these people full with some kind of hallucinatory drug or something along those lines.

"the latter two sell ONLY on the cachet of being 'foreign"

Um, no, not really. Being foreign is only one side of the equation. The other is history and reputation.

German luxury cars have a superb reputation in Japan dating back to the 1950s. People aspire to own a BMW or a Mercedes, a Jaguar or an Aston Martin. Heck, even brands like Cadillac have a pretty strong following in Japan amongst a certain niche group.

cdoke - 2/25/2008 3:18:28 PMView My AgentSpace

+8 Boost

"BMW had record sales in 2007, but still wishes its flagship 7 Series commanded as much prestige as the Mercedes-Benz flagship S-Class."

As it happens, I was at both a Mercedes and BMW dealership yesterday. These dealerships are owned by the same gentleman and are next to each other.

I am always impressed when I see the current generation S-class with the execution of the interior. Complain as I might about the lack of an over-riding stylistic character and the less than ideal interior colors, I really do like the S-class.

...and then down the way is the 7 series. In full knowledge of my abhorrence of plastic, I will leave to you to imagine what I thought about the 7 series interior.

reply to this comment

bmwman1963 - 2/25/2008 5:07:12 PMView My AgentSpace

-11 Boost

I'll take a BMW 7 series over a MB S class any day of the week!

MB is for people who want to show off $$$$$$ whereas the 7 series of for people who LIKE TO DRIVE!!!

Fit and Finish on the 7 series is awesome. Let's see what happens when the newly remodeled 7 series goes on sale.. I bet the S class takes a huge hit in sales!

Willis - 2/25/2008 5:27:50 PM

+9 Boost

the 7 series of for people who LIKE TO DRIVE!!!

You really believe that? The 7 series is probably the worst handling BMW out there. Nobody in their right mind buys a 7 series for the "driving factor", nobody. Only kids like you who seem to know nothing about cars at all could come up with some BS statement like that.

S4cabriofoxone - 2/25/2008 6:32:46 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

Both the S-Class and the A8 handle as well as the 7. There is almost no reason to buy a 7 Series these days, though you might get a good deal.

VISO - 2/25/2008 10:35:12 PM

+2 Boost

In Europe the sales of Lexus are also negative. Lexus is about to hit a wall globally in terms of sales as its competitors are getting very aggressive in putting out competing models in the green area. If the hybrid bubble pops, so goes Lexus.

cdoke - 2/25/2008 11:15:38 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

Where in the hell, either in my comment on those in reply to it, are sales mentioned? Either a) you are an agitator or b) your comment is in the wrong place.

Which one is it?

JRobUSC - 2/26/2008 2:40:44 PM

-1 Boost

I agree with you that the 7-Series interior is dated by comparison now that it's six years old. HOWEVER, the only place the 7-Series has more plastic inside than the S-class is on top of the dash, and I am sure the brand new 7-Series coming out at the end of the year will have a leather dash option since the 6-Series, M5/6, and X6 all do now as well.

Let's be fair here and give credit where credit is due -- it's very plain to see where Mercedes got their inspiration for the new S-class interior. They got it from the 7-Series. The layout of the interiors of the S and the current 7 are almost identical, right down to the drawers in the center stack (which are wood in the BMW, plastic in the MB by the way), the iDrive/COMMAND knob, the double bin dash layout, the shifter stalk, etc.

Mercedes had five years to copy, tweak, and upgrade the 7-Series interior and they did a fine job (though I dislike the plastic drawers in the center stack, they should have finished copying BMW there). Kudos to Mercedes for recognizing the potential of the interior BMW designed. And in seven months we'll see BMW's response to the interior Mercedes borrowed from them.

Monk - 2/26/2008 6:24:14 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

cdoke, do you live in seattle?
phil smart sr. owns an mb and bmw dealership right next to each other too.

cdoke - 2/26/2008 9:25:23 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

No, Denver.

S4cabriofoxone - 2/27/2008 12:50:27 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

There are BMW/MB dealers all over the place... there's one 15 min from where I live (Cook County IL) called the Knauz Auto Park. They have a Land Rover dealer, Chrysler, MINI, BMW, Merc, and one or two others. There's also a Jag dealer right outside the "Park."

tattedtwice - 2/25/2008 3:34:00 PM

-5 Boost

"BMW had record sales in 2007, but still wishes its flagship 7 Series commanded as much prestige as the Mercedes-Benz flagship S-Class."

Who writes this sh*t? Who said they "wish" their car commanded anything, other than so-called insider 'experts'. I'm sure BMW isn't somewhere thinking, gee, we sure wish our 6 year old flagship drew as much attention as our brand new competitors.

Clearly it was benz who looked to BMW for inspiration anyway, since they stole so many cues from the 7. And besides, it's an underwhelming underperformer in comparison, until you move up to the amg. So, if BMW "wishes" their car had the prestige, then m-b must wish theirs had the sportiness and performance.

reply to this comment

ErichHartmann - 2/25/2008 4:17:29 PM

+3 Boost

"Clearly it was benz who looked to BMW for inspiration anyway, since they stole so many cues from the 7."

Really? I was under the impression that the current 7er stole many styling cues from the Maybach Concept. The S-Klasse has no styling cues from the BMW 7er at all. None.

"And besides, it's an underwhelming underperformer in comparison, until you move up to the amg."

Is this your stupid opinion or are there reviews out there that state this? Because every comparison I've read has stated that the current S-Klasse is completely superior to the current 7er in terms of handling and it exceeds the 7er in comfort, space and performance. Your opinion is what it is, stupid and flawed.

"So, if BMW "wishes" their car had the prestige, then m-b must wish theirs had the sportiness and performance."

Sportiness and performance? Well, the S-Klasse has them both. Even in non-AMG form.

Good day, sir.

GruntyDieselsRock - 2/25/2008 5:03:41 PM

-2 Boost

Dear Erich,

Check out the boot lid. Plonked on top. Just like a 7. The dashboard. Ugly display unit smacked in the middle. Just like a 7. Dodgy proportions. Just like the 7. Sorry Erich, but your beloved S Class has been designed to be more modern as BMW left conservative behind with that Bangle man, so Merc had to push onwards too. And the results are shared elements and as the Merc came out second that means that Merc took styling cues from BMW.

Simple and not up for discussion I am afraid Erich.

answer - 2/25/2008 5:33:46 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

Your wasting your time discussing anything with this Erich guy.

He thinks his way is the only way of looking at things, and as such, non-European cars and non-European tastes are meaningless.

answer - 2/25/2008 5:35:11 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

And yeah, if the current S class interior (dash/console design) wasn't lifted from the 7 series, it sure as hell was inspired by it.

Willis - 2/25/2008 6:19:24 PM

-1 Boost

I happen to agree with Erich. He makes a valid point about the Maybach concept car and raised boot it represented. I also don't see any BMW 7 series styling cues on the current Mercedes S class.

And how can some of you claim that the interior of the S class was inspired by the BMW 7 series? Car and interior design isn't started and finished overnight. The moment a new car is released the design studios begin immediately designing the next generation.

To me the S class cockpit looks nothing like the BMW 7 series interior at all. I think some people will use anything to make another brand look bad. We've got tons of such idiots on this site...

bmwman1963 - 2/25/2008 6:33:51 PMView My AgentSpace

-6 Boost

Yeah and U R one of them.

Willis - 2/25/2008 7:25:07 PM

+1 Boost

No, BMWMan1963, you are clearly one of them.

I assume you were born in 1963? That makes you pretty "stupid" I guess for an "old guy" based on your comments in other threads.

bmwman1963 - 2/25/2008 8:43:44 PMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

"Stupid", that's rich coming from you.

BMW fan yes, "Stupid" no.

Resorting to calling people stupid and idiots does not an expert make you.

And assuming does an ass make you.

Calling a truce, because clearly from all of your postings on different threads here "you know more than everyone else."

Mercedes - 2/26/2008 2:06:16 AM

+2 Boost

Dude, you're clueless. Mercedes showed a concept version of what BMW calls idrive back in 1995, and the trunklid from the S is off the Maybach from 1997. Neither concept has anything to do with BMW. Please do some research before posting.

Willis - 2/26/2008 7:37:55 AM

+1 Boost

No, BMWman, I am not a smartass but your posts are filled with bias.

Look at the post from forum member "Mercedes" above me. Now look those facts up on the Internet and you will be surprised.

Mercedes presented their version of i-Drive many years before BMW did, but decided not to produce it. FACT.

The Maybach concept had a raised trunklid many years before the current BMW 7 series came out. FACT.

bmwman1963 - 2/26/2008 9:37:22 AMView My AgentSpace

-7 Boost

I could care less about the IDrive or the Maybach man.

I didn't right anything concerning the two..

I am talking about sheer driving joy and pleasure. Something I am very familiar with and BMW delivers this better than any other make in MY OPINION!

I am so glad you can "quote" from all the automotive magazines and websites.

IMHO all models of the BMW line up are drivers cars. Some people are fans and some are not.

bmwman1963 - 2/26/2008 9:47:51 AMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

By the way Willis, I've noticed that your posts tend to be biased in favor of Mercedes.

Hmmmmmmmm !! Projection of bias, how interesting.

Willis - 2/26/2008 11:44:35 AM

-1 Boost

"BMW delivers this better than any other make in MY OPINION!"

So you're saying a 318i is more fun to drive than a Porsche Boxster S for instance? Gotcha. I used to own a couple of BMW's the past. An E46 325i and a Z3. Fun cars, sure, but I could get a similar amount of driving pleasure from a cheaper Mazda Miata or even an Infiniti G35 and for much less money. What am I saying? Fun to drive is a subjective factor.

My posts are not in favor of Mercedes', I am simply being open minded and objective, not biased. I tend to like all cars from all nations, except the Chinese brands perhaps.

bmwman1963 - 2/26/2008 11:58:08 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Then we do have something in common Willis, a dislike of the chinese brands.

Hey, I think it is great that you are objective. I admit my bias towards BMW and in all honesty taste is truly subjective.

Sorry if I offended you in any way.. I consider our banter educational and informative. There are so many great cars out there and we are bound to disagree on them from time to time.

cdoke - 2/25/2008 3:52:47 PMView My AgentSpace

+12 Boost

You will please excuse me whilst I point and laugh.

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 2/25/2008 6:39:34 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

Why the hell would you put Audi with Toyota and Honda? Even VW is above them.

reply to this comment

XYZZ - 2/26/2008 2:11:38 AM

0 Boost

"...Even VW is above them."

s4, stream of consciousness or not, this statement of yours is 10x more idiotic than dugit's!

amongst just the japanese brands:

Tier 1: Lexus
Tier 2: Infiniti, Acura
Tier 3: Toyota, Honda
Tier 4: Subaru
Tier 5; Nissan
Tier 6 and lower: Mitsubishi and the rest

VW, gussied-up interiors notwithstanding, barely matches up to Tier 6 japanese cars in quality and technology.

reply to this comment

JRobUSC - 2/26/2008 2:52:22 PM

+3 Boost

Vendetta, if you're going to bring up flagship models it helps if they actually sell. The Mercedes McLaren SLR doesn't. Even Porsche couldn't sustain the Carrera GT, which was a superior car to the McMerc. So BMW could very easily have a $600k vehicle. Any manufacturer could. If you want to get technical, BMW once ALSO paired with McLaren on a little car you might have heard of known as the "F1", which anyone not named Paris Hilton (who has an SLR) would tell you is the superior car. It also sold for twice the money 20 years ago, was completely sold out from day one, and is a prized collector's car. That will never happen with the SLR, which they can't even sell now.

So bravo Mercedes on your flagship. By the way, the other MB flagship, Maybach? Also a sales disaster. Hello $50k rebates last year to move new ones. Hello 40% of your dealers closing. How is Rolls Royce (owned by BMW) doing? Oh yeah, record year for them.

So stop bragging about Mercedes dominance just because they elected to lose money building hyper expensive cars that no one is buying.

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 2/27/2008 12:52:25 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

"s4, stream of consciousness or not, this statement of yours is 10x more idiotic than dugit's!"

Take the reliability out of the equation, and what do you have?

A lineup of cars that is more stylish, more athletic, more luxurious, safer, better engineered and simply cooler than the competition. VW is a great brand, no matter what you say.

reply to this comment

S4cabriofoxone - 2/27/2008 12:56:03 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

"VW, gussied-up interiors notwithstanding, barely matches up to Tier 6 japanese cars in quality and technology."

One more thing...

WHAT THE HELL DO YOU BASE THIS ON??? Consumer Reports?

VW's cars are more technologically advanced than Toyotas, Mitsus and Nissans combined. Honda is the only one that can match them. VW made DSG for the masses, gave us the VR6, produces some of the best turbo fours in the world, is right on top of diesel technology, manages quite a few fantastic luxury brands, makes safety a major priority and has designers that are always looking to innovate. How can you sit there and pretend VW isn't technologically advanced? Audi may have developed the bulk of the VW group's crowning achievements, but VW is a leader in its own right.

reply to this comment

XYZZ - 3/1/2008 4:15:03 AM

0 Boost

other than the DSG tranny and diesels (popular in europe, NOT factors generating sales in u.s.), there is little to nothing vw has done that the japanese brands have not equalled or bettered. the sporty mitsus and subarus have done as well or better. and they all give you speed WITH reliability.

reply to this comment

autopro - 2/25/2008 3:47:20 PMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

BMW had the largest buy-back on the 7 series in their history.Alot of people were burned and won't buy or lease another BMW,even though their lease is a give away.

reply to this comment

VISO - 2/25/2008 10:42:05 PM

-5 Boost

Audi is tier 1 based of its global presence and its competing models, racing success, and overall brand culture. Please stop writing that Bullsh%t already! No one intelligent and knowledgeable about the auto market and brands would put Audi tier 3 (except lame fanboys that infest this site). Let's try this again:

Tier 1: Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz, Lexus
Tier 2: Acura, Infiniti, Cadillac, Jaguar
Tier 3: Lincoln (?) - not really sure on that one.

Globally:

Tier 1: Audi, Mercedes-Benz, BMW
Tier 2: Lexus, Jaguar (for name recognition, not sales)
Tier 3: none
Tier 4: Cadillac, Acura, Infiniti

The fat lady has sung!

VISO - 2/25/2008 10:47:07 PM

-2 Boost

dugit your funny!

bmwman1963 - 2/25/2008 3:51:20 PMView My AgentSpace

-6 Boost

Once again, BMW still offers the 4/50,000 scheduled maint. whereas the other prem. lux. brands have abandoned ship in that area. I think that speaks volumes about which company is truly proud and committed to making the customer happy. Repeat owners of BMW models is higher than most every other car company.

reply to this comment

07G35J - 2/25/2008 5:49:31 PM

+3 Boost

On average, BMW is much more expensive than its competitors (I'd say between $3K to $5K) when comparing the same car category (ex. 3 Series with MB C-Class or Infiniti G35). Of course they offer "free" scheduled maintenance... you've already paid for it!!

07G35J - 2/25/2008 9:11:04 PM

+5 Boost

Hey, don't get me wrong. I do like BMW's. I think they make excellent cars, and they are the benchmark when it comes to sport sedans (3 Series). Take it from me. I own an 07 G35, and I know Infiniti has always aimed at the 3 Series because it is the best out there.

What I don't like about it is the gimmick of free maintenance when I know it's already included in the price. Don't insult my intelligence, BMW.

XYZZ - 2/26/2008 2:21:38 AM

+2 Boost

why ONLY 4 years free maintenance and repairs?

because from year 5 onwards, REPAIRS on bmws become such even bmw doesn't want ot pick up the tab.

lexus, toyota, and honda never even BOTHERED to get into the warranty wars. because buyers KNOW even out of warranty, their cars still have another hundred thousand repair free miles.

EVERY MAKER that ever offered EXTRA LONG WARRANTIES, from chrysler in their dark days to hyundai, to chrsyler once again, did so because they HAD TO, in order to restore shaky confidence in their cars amongst the buying public.

JRobUSC - 2/26/2008 3:07:39 PM

+3 Boost

G35, you're basing your "BMW is $3-5k more than the competition" on ONE vehicle. Yes, the 3-Series sedan is more than the competition, and every BMW is pretty much always going to be more than all the Japanese counterparts. BUT other than the C-class sedan/wagon the Mercedes competitor to BMW's models is always more expensive. The CLK versus the 3-Series coupe/convertible? CLK is thousands and thousands more (and before you say the CLK is a 6-Series competitor the CLK is built on a C-class platform, not an E-class). The E-class is more than the 5-Series (though the gap is almost non-existant now). The S-class is more than the 7-Series. The SLK is more than the Z4. The only other car that's even debatable is the X5, which is higher than the ML but at or under the GL.

And guess what? The Japanese brands (and Mercedes) would absolutely charge just as much for their G35/TL/IS/C-Class as BMW does for the 3-Series if they thought they'd sell. They know they wouldn't, though, the 3 is the benchmark and the competition has to sell based on "value". BMW would likewise love to charge S-class money for the 7-Series, but (at least until the new 7 comes out) they know they can't. Same with Lexus and the GS/LS or Infiniti with the M. You don't think they'd love to be rolling GS's and M's for the same price as E350 and E550's or BMW 535's and 550's, or LS460's for the same price as S550's or 750Li's? You're out of your mind if you don't. Value, value, value. That's what they're selling. The difference between them is that top teir marques sell without having to do that.

07G35J - 2/26/2008 4:38:23 PM

0 Boost

You have a very good point, JRobUSC. So, the extra money that I'd have to pay for a 3 Series comparably equipped to its Japanese counterparts (G35, IS, TL... uhh maybe not the TL) is not pre-paid maintenance, but a premium for buying the best out there?

JRobUSC - 2/26/2008 7:16:22 PM

+3 Boost

whether it's the best or not is subject to individual interpretation. To someone who needs more space and loves gadgets a TL could be "the best" for them. To someone who values comfort and ride over everything, an ES350 might be "the best".

To someone looking to buy an entry level luxury sport sedan though, the 3-Series is considered the benchmark. It's the cars all the others are trying to emulate, trying to dethrone. As such it costs more. Lexus is the only one that has encroached on 3-Series pricing when they debuted the IS. It sold well for a year because it was "new", now it's an also ran. If Infiniti could sell $47k G35 sedans they would. Instead they have to price the M35 there to undercut the BMW and Mercedes. Are the G and M good cars? You bet. But fair or not that's the difference between a "brand" and a "marque". Brands are trying to chase marques. They're trying to become marques. If I walked into an Infiniti dealer and an M35 was the same price as a 535i or upcoming 300hp+ E350, or even within $5k of one, I'd never even make it inside the showroom. I'd be back in my car heading over to the BMW or Mercedes dealer, because if I'm not getting "value" by driving a lesser brand, I'll just drive the car that they're trying to be.

07G35J - 2/26/2008 11:35:39 PM

+2 Boost

JRobUSC,

I understand your point now, Thanks.

autopro - 2/27/2008 11:00:24 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Ok its not in the price,BMW is so over priced its a joke.

bmwman1963 - 2/25/2008 6:01:20 PMView My AgentSpace

-6 Boost

typo on the "of the people who like to drive"... Sorry Willis..

No kid here. Owned them all and know the 7 is much better for driving than the S...

Everyone has an opinion just expressing mine.

reply to this comment

Willis - 2/25/2008 6:22:57 PM

+1 Boost

Oh please. You should really go out more often and read the reviews, because they all state that the current S class is superior to the BMW 7 series in handling and driving dynamics. Maybe the 7 series has a slight edge in the limits, but in everyday realistic driving situations such a limit will never be reached, unless you drive in a suicidal fashion.

And do you really think people in this niche buy their cars for handling purposes? Do you take your 7 series on the track? Because I sure as hell wouldn't. Your handling advantage is essentially worthless because nobody in their right mind takes an S class or 7 series on the track for some serious performance driving.

S4cabriofoxone - 2/25/2008 6:42:16 PMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

I'm backing Willis on this one.

For the 7 Series, performance is its only calling card. It came out in 2002.

Then 2003 came, and with it, the Audi A8L. Guess who won all the reviews? That's because it's so damn well-rounded. The A8L is gorgeous, sporty and quite luxurious.

Now it's 2008, and the new S-Class has already been around for two years. The 7 Series is consistently near the bottom of the pack in comparison tests, always getting beaten by the Audi and the Merc, who had a one-two finish in a C/D test from last year (1. S550, 2. A8L). This is because they're so well-rounded! The S-Class takes what the A8 has and brings it to the next level--more luxury, more style, more performance. What's not to like?

VISO - 2/25/2008 10:46:26 PM

+4 Boost

I'm agree with Willis and S4. In all the comparisons since 2004, the 7-Series has always finished behind the A8-Series and the S-Class with the A8 dominating the comparos until the new S-Class arrived and then it was the S-Class barely edging the A8 in head to head comparisons generally by 1-2 points. Please check your facts at the door before making those statements.

Willis - 2/26/2008 7:35:39 AM

+1 Boost

Thanks for the support.

In terms of comfort, the S class is the leader in this class hands down. Recent reviews have said the Lexus LS doesn't even come close because the suspension becomes nervous on rough roads, which isn't the case with the S class. The Audi A8 generally has better driving dynamics than the S class and that's what brings it closer to the S class in terms of points. Comfort wise, the A8 is a top as well, but the S class exceeds it (and in turn the A8 exceeds it a bit in driving dynamics). Quite interesting how the A8 and S class are so similar, yet so different.

xlr8 - 2/25/2008 6:19:01 PM

+6 Boost

Is this all you guys do, bitch about whos better bmw or lexus...what a sad forum =( Cant we all just be car enthusiasts and appreciate cars for what they are =)

reply to this comment

bmwman1963 - 2/25/2008 6:27:26 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

U R right xlr8.. Everyone has an opinion and we all like different cars.

Not a hater here, just an informed and experienced driver.

reply to this comment

Willis - 2/25/2008 7:39:13 PM

+4 Boost

An opinion is fine, as long as the facts agree.

And in this case they don't. The S class has been widely praised for its superb combination of high class comfort and agile handling. Mind you this is something that is not easily achieved in any car, especially a heavy luxury sedan like the S class.

I was able to sample the S550 too and I have to agree with the reviews. For a large sedan it's surprisingly nimble in handling feel and feels confident in most driving situations.

I think you're being defensive here since you're apparently a BMW fan and you feel the BMW 7 series is "better" than the S class. Right now, the current 7 series is pretty much the most outdated car in its class. The S class is widely considered the benchmark and the car to beat in this class.

bmwman1963 - 2/26/2008 11:06:57 AMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

You keep checkin' the facts for me Willis, while you are doing this, "I will be enjoying the sheer driving pleasure of my BMWs....

Everyone know that when each German make releases their latest flagship model it more often than not trumps the others in most road tests.

There is still nothing like the steering feel of a BMW and the connection to the road a BMW gives the driver, this my friend is truly priceless.

I have enjoyed the conversations with you and don't consider you the enemy. I am an automotive aficianado too.

Willis - 2/26/2008 11:50:55 AM

-1 Boost

Good to hear we're "forum buddies", but I have to disagree about your statement that states that the contact with the road a BMW gives you in priceless. Like I said in an earlier post, I used to own an E46 325i and I enjoyed the car. Easily one of the most involving cars in this class with a great power-to-weight ratio and weight balance. I think part of what makes the 3 series an enjoyable car is not so much the engine, but the weight balance. This is the key to great handling, in conjunction with a responsive steering system and a capable suspension. But when you've driven a number of sporty cars like me, you really get to see that there are other cars out there that more or less deliver the same thing. I'm sure you'd agree that any Porsche, except perhaps the Cayenne, will have a steering feel that is even more precise and responsive than all BMW's, including the M models.

bmwman1963 - 2/26/2008 12:04:16 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

I do agree Willis.

I've only driven one Porsche and it has been several years ago, and the drive was fantastic.

I try to compare Apples to Apples and Porsche is in a league of their own.

Cheers Man!

bmwman1963 - 2/25/2008 8:35:22 PMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

Until the next 7 in about a year!

reply to this comment

VISO - 2/25/2008 10:50:13 PM

+2 Boost

Until the new A8 arrives in a year and half. That is the nature of good solid competition. Everyone benefits as the models get better and better as German dawgs battle it out for global dominance. Whoa! that sounds like...

reply to this comment

Denali - 2/25/2008 11:26:44 PM

+4 Boost

well here's mine opinion, not to down play the S-class/or MBZ fans but the s500 was nowhere as close to better handling then 7, im sorry, not even close, the numbers and stats where good but the 7 was better, not because im a current 7 series driver, i like all large sedans, even the buick lucerne, but i switch cars with my best friend who is a S-class owner all the time so i know, since he upgrade to the S550, all im going to say, it puts all the big boys to same, just my opinion, as far as the A8 goes, that car just started to play big, meaning 2004-up, to get up there with the likes of XJ, S, 7, & LS even the Q & STS, lol, like i said about audi all the time they just keep getting better

reply to this comment

bmwman1963 - 2/26/2008 1:38:05 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Audi has become a major player in the German Lux/Sports field. Thumbs up to the A5/S5 and a major thumbs up for the R8!!!!!!

MunichRob - 2/26/2008 2:00:11 AMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

You know for a vehicle that's 6 years old now the 7-series is still very modern, granted I'd take the S-Class but the 7 is still a top contender in my eyes.

When you're talking base models it still is the best performer in it's class, maybe not the best rounded or the most comfortable like a sedan in this class should be, but easily the most capable on a back road.

Say what you will about the 7-series but it did set a new & exceptionally high benchmark back in 02’, heavily influencing all new & current competitors in this class.

reply to this comment

bmwman1963 - 2/26/2008 1:27:45 PMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

I couldn't have said it better myself MunichRob !

Just wait to the new 7 series hits the market! Another new standard for the industry..

VISO - 2/26/2008 3:04:03 PM

+1 Boost

You honestly drive around and base someone's wealth off the car they are driving? Just when I thought you couldn't say anything more lame the usual, you actually say something even more lame. By the way, A8 owners on average make about $100,000 per year than an owner of a 7-Series. Plus, A8 owners tend to be more educated with higher % of graduate degrees and private business ownership in relation to 7-Series owners. So bugger off fool! You are so factually challenged that it is somewhat funny. Yet, the 7-Series hasn't beaten the A8 in any head to head comparisons. BMW makes great small cars, but true luxury cars they should leave that to Audi and Mercedes-Benz. These two have a long history of building grand luxury vehicles and not rebadging Dixies.

reply to this comment

mini22 - 2/26/2008 1:14:42 PM

0 Boost