40 Votes

Are BMW and Lexus Just Talking Smack??

Agent009 submitted on 6/14/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 1:48:23 PM

66 user comments | Category: Misc News | Source: www.autospies.com

Who competes against whom? In the ever crowded performance sedan market, everyone tries to find a target to shoot at.

To the marketing execs this may be a science, but to the enthusiast and the consumer it can be unclear at best.

A case in point is recent rambling from an Australian BMW exec stating that only Mercedes and Lexus are the key competitors and that Audi was a “non-issue”. Boastful words no doubt.

BMW exec says Audi is no threat

But on the other hand scouring the Lexus forums, (bet you didn't think I trolled there did you) I ran across a posting that Lexus sources are targeting the new IS-F against the Audi RS4 not the BMW M3. So, on the surface Lexus may have ruled out BMW as their main rival in this segment and chosen to focus on Audi.

IS-F is to compete against RS4 not the M3

So the big question is who are the players and why?

Is BMW too focused on Mercedes and Lexus to realize there is a true threat in Audi?

Is Lexus targeting the RS4 because they know something that BMW doesn’t?

Just who is Mercedes targeting?

Where is Infiniti in all of this?

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"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
— Agent009 (View Profile)

User Comments

"A case in point is recent rambling from an Australian BMW exec stating that only BMW and Lexus are the key competitors..."

We will assume you mean Mercedes and Lexus, although I don't doubt BMW itself has a case of schizophrenia...
— BenzW124 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 2:21:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1

Mercedes doesn't target anyone. All others target the legend, the world's first automobile company, Mercedes-Benz.
— BenzW124 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 2:22:38 PM | | Votes: -5

And we will assume from your username that your second comment is pure biased bs. Just because Mercedes was among the first automobile companies, that does not mean that they just sit by and ignore their competition, resting on the fact that they were first. At least we should all hope that Mercedes does not follow that first-grader mentality.
— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 2:26:04 PM | | Votes: 12

Benz- I corrected the typo
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 3:56:44 PM | | Votes: 3

It's quite funny a month back a BMW exec mentioned in another ariticle that they were most worried about the Infiniti G35 targeting their 3 series line. I think these BMW execs are smoking something, they're definitely not on the same page.
— dvst8u (View Profile)

Posted on 6/15/2007 12:39:26 PM | | Votes: 2

Buy the car you like best. Hold your opinions till you feel you can be helpful and not divisive, and most importantly don't take pride in someone else's company.

You don't own Merc, Toyota, BMW, Nissan. Let the shareholders, execs, and board worry about loyalty. They should have to win yours not inherently have it.

Josh
— d1sinfo (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 2:30:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 16

That's one of the best comments I have ever read here.
— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 2:34:43 PM | | Votes: 6

+1
— Htay7500 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/15/2007 11:56:05 AM | | Votes: 0

for a moment there you sounded like the 001Buster from the previous generation of this site.
— DiamondJim (View Profile)

Posted on 6/17/2007 1:19:32 PM | | Votes: 1

50k~55k vs 65k~70k
I don't think the IS-F targets the overpriced RS4.
— SupraNeverBack (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 2:31:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4

overpriced and selling every one we get with no lease deals or special financing

and making big money
— IamEvilHomer (View Profile)

Posted on 6/15/2007 12:47:47 AM | | Votes: 3

How do we know it has 425hp?

And since when is a standard automatic transmission a good thing, in this class?
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 6/15/2007 1:17:34 AM | | Votes: 2

the IS-F will be no doubt the cheapest of the bunch. Im worried about lexus though because its not surprise that the IS-F doesnt look the best...nor (though were not sure) will it handle the best. Its going to be the poor mans performance car.

With that said, if it does handle brilliantly, then i think it could hold targets against all the brands, although i think its going to be some time before then.
— LexusKindaGuy12 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 2:41:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4

"Cheapest" or less expensive?
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 3:57:44 PM | | Votes: 4

I real like the looks of the IS-F its much more agressive looking than de RS4 and M3.
— STJ88 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 2:43:51 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

I think since they started this independent maker banter. They finally realized that that Mercedes and Audi together could release more models faster and basically run them over.

This may be why BMW wants to work closer with Mercedes to lower the cost of development and keep the edge it has. Without the collaboration they will be doomed to higher R&D costs than the others.
— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 4:02:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

Bmw exec> nice old ploy,keep the others at bay and mention just Lexus, this way you don't give free advertising and muddy up the waters even more for the real players in your quest to hold market share.
A jockey looks behind to see the field and who is gaining, I can asure you BMW watches everythig thing Audi,MBZ, and Infinti are putting out their they have to or the race is lost?
— chuck717 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 2:57:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7

THIS IS ANOTHER ENGINEERED FLAME WAR!!!

And you guys are taking the bait!

I can't believe it.

I'll lay out my thoughts, but I'm not posting another thing here.

Mercedes isn't after anyone. If they were, their AMG models would be more driver-focused, but instead they're luxurious sedans that happen to go very fast. That can also be very appealing.

On the other hand, Audi and BMW are sportier. They have great handling and impressive engines, but just happen to house luxurious interiors. They are performance cars first, luxury cars second. It just depends on what you want. And, were I BMW, I would take Audi as a very serious competitor.

Lexus? I can't know. I have a feeling they'll end up like AMG- fast, nice interiors. But perhaps they'll surprise us.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 2:58:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7

Don't underestimate Mercedes-AMG like that. Their cars have magnificent handling. When was the last time you drove an AMG?

Each brand has its strengths and weaknesses, yes.

Pure sport is clearly BMW M's main stance, leaving a great deal to be desired in terms of luxury.

Past BMW, I think Audi and Mercedes do a brilliant job of finding the perfect balance between luxury and sport. I feel that Lexus will to, with all three being their target.

A good balance of luxury and sport would have to go to Audi S/RS. A nice interior with proven good-handling AWD systems that are better-equipped at daily driving than BMW.

Mercedes-AMG definitely produces some fast and comfortable machines. Notably, the E63 AMG has topped the M5 and S6 in more than one comparison test. Fast in a straight line, yes, but still agile through a corner as well.

Then there's Lexus. They will undoubtedly retain their luxe with their extremely comfortable interiors. They do have hard work cut out for them in deciding whether or not to make the F-line a pure racetrack-inspired series like BMW's M, or deciding to search and find that sport/luxe balance like Mercedes and Audi? There's a lot of possibilites, and one thing that is certain is that more competition is never a bad thing for all parties involved when it comes to the consumer.

— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 3:31:38 PM | | Votes: 1

Oh please. Mercedes-Benz AMG is also handling focused and the cars handle just fine.

Have you driven the new E63 AMG? Or the CLK63 AMG etc.? I have (I work for Mercedes) and I have also driven a few cars from the competition, RS and M's included. In comparison to them the AMG cars feel a little more luxury oriented, but the handling and steering feel is just as direct providing more than adequate feedback.
— ErichHartmann (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 4:04:54 PM | | Votes: 5

Eric and Anthony. I haven't driven the E63 but I drove the last model year of the E55 (I have a relative in Florida who lets me drive it). The steering was adequate - but I wouldn't say it was good. The only time I got excited was when I pressed down with my right foot. Even then I would like to be using my left foot as well, but alas, the car only comes with and automatic. The AMG Benzes sure look nice though.
— truecarlover (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 7:20:27 PM | | Votes: 4

Okay, I guess I have to post again...

Guys, guys! I love AMG. Notice how I said "That can also be very appealing," at the end of my comment on it.

Yes, I know Merc makes cars with great handling. The E63 AMG will be on my list- it's beautiful inside and out, has an amazing engine/addicting exhaust note and, so I've read, impressive handling. So you can't really call me biased...

It's just that I'm talking relatively here. And, relatively (compared to M and RS), AMG is more about outright speed than handling.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 6/15/2007 1:21:12 AM | | Votes: 2

98% of buyers buying performance sedans are buying for social status, prestige or whatever. It boils down to the social ladder really. A Camry handles just as well on the 101 as an M5 (though the CHP more likely will keep an eye on the M5). Less than 1% will seek out that really fast, backroad, or that absolute zinger of a mountian switchback, or the once-a-month flat out@ 160mph- fuel cut off- track day weekend at say- The Infineon Speedway.

So Infiniti- BMW- Audi- Lexus- Mercedes- Cadillac. Whatever. You find your sport in the experiece, not just the car. The experience has to be sought, and actively. You can't purchase it, even if you buy an Enzo. Last I hear, the super sporty Enzo types couldn't drive to avoid a lamp-post (and didn't).
— Lyall (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 3:09:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

He said a Camry handles just as well as an M5 on the highway in traffic, bimmermike, but I do agree in that I'd say a far larger percentage of performance sedan buyers care about actual performance than just 2%.
— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 3:34:16 PM | | Votes: 5

Stop fighting! Get a Kia! Die in peace! ;)
— vdiv (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 3:13:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6

I think that's a fair assumption. Many BMW people here have claimed the RS4 and M3 really aren't competitors because the RS4 is a four-door. Surely the same argument will arise when the new M3 hits the streets.
— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 4:26:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

I think you meant 'Audi, Mercedes or Lexus," Caltrans.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 6/15/2007 1:23:06 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

I think we'll have to wait till the Lexus and M3 are on the road to compare them with the RS4. You can't say one thing is better than the other without them even being on the road yet. So far the RS4 is an amazing car but let's wait and see. But I do agree that when your looking for luxury and comfort buy a lexus or MB. If your looking for more performance look to buy a BMW, Audi, or even infiniti.
— chidoc (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 5:02:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

My current babies:

2007 Lexus RX400h AWD, white with tan. Just bought it a month ago to replace a 2002 BMW X5 4.4. Quite a different driving experience from the BMW, but it's very comfortable, quiet, and easier on gas and emissions. The X5 was starting to have annoying issues like dash buttons falling off, A/C fan failure, etc. The X5 replaced a 2001 BMW 740iL that I drove for less than a year because of numerous electrical problems that drove me nuts.

2004 Audi TT Coupe, 3.2l Quattro, silver with black. WOW! I bought it for fun, and it is, it is--just not terribly practical since the backseat doesn't hold normal-sized humans. It only has 8,500 miles on it after almost three years...I need to get out more
:-)
— tacocat (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 5:52:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

commented under the wrong article, didn't I ...
— tacocat (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 6:00:25 PM | | Votes: 7

I can't stop laughing at your last minute realization...pure genius.
— Bmw8ter (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 9:47:53 PM | | Votes: 2

As an enthusiast, it is easy to hate Toyota/Lexus, with their dull boring cars with styling imperfectly copied from others. As a person who pays the bills to fix my BMW, with the plastic water pumps and plastic radiators that disintegrate at the typical 60-80K miles, windshield trim that blows off the car, there is a lot of allure to having a car that I can just do routine maintenance to. Watch out when Toyota/Lexus finally copies the sportiness factor correctly.

In poetic justice, the Koreans are right behind them and will use the same tricks against them.
— LeftCoaster (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 6:05:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

I think you are correct - as far as I know the E63 only won once. In that comparison the S6 was second and the M5 was last.
— truecarlover (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 7:23:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5

And the S6 has also won two times. I can't recall an M5 winning- but perhaps it did once.
— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 6/15/2007 1:25:10 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2

this is going to be a great competition, but where is all the videos from an IS-f. their has been a thousand M3 videos, come on.
— trd1 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 8:30:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6

If the IS-F looked more subtle like the RS4, I would have put down a down payment for one. Now it looks like a car from that dumb movie fast and furious. I can't imagine what my clients would think when they see me in one.

But I see it competing head to head with the M3.... not the RS4. RS4 is a completely different animal with the quattro system.
— Anti_Bangle (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 10:46:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

I think 2 MGs, a Mini, a BMW and 4 Porsches (911, 911, 993S, & 997S) moves beyond "learning about cars".

I arrived at a friends home yesterday, and from the distance, I thought he had bought a Mercedes - but up closer, it was a Lexus....
— LeftCoaster (View Profile)

Posted on 6/14/2007 10:47:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0

amazinBimmer you are an IDIOT! Not even BMW fans like you! Get lost! That's about it.
— AUTO_UNION (View Profile)

Posted on 6/15/2007 2:16:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3

BMW= stand for Big Mexican Woman
— hieneken (View Profile)

Posted on 6/16/2007 9:39:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Formula= stand for "Fat Original Retardate Moron Upstair Licking Asshole".
— hieneken (View Profile)

Posted on 6/17/2007 11:59:09 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

Lexus ALWAYS understates their 0 - 60 times by at least .5 seconds. Here are the results of the 5 Top Luxury Cars in this test which was reported in the January Issue of Car and Driver. Please note these tests were all done on the same day at about the same time and at the same altitude. The results reflect the average of 3 runs and all cars are the 2007 vintage.

Mercedes S550 5.6, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.1 (Benz show 5.4 in their specs)
BMW 750iL 5.7, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.2
Jag XJ Super 6.0 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.5
Lexus LS460L 6.2 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.6
Audi A8 6.8 0 - 60 quarter mile 15.2

Note that Lexus, as usual, is more than the 5.4 the manufacturer CLAIMS to get by .8 seconds.

Also note the LS430 (prior model the LS460 replaced) was rated at 295 HP and was actually 278 when Lexus corrected their rating. And there were no refunds or apologies from the so-called "quality" car company. ABC - Always Be Careful what you buy from the (REPREHENSIBLE) Toyota/Lexus people.....
— bevisroy (View Profile)

Posted on 6/21/2007 10:18:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1

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Are BMW and Lexus Just Talking Smack??

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