Why Japanese automakers won't give Aston Martin a second glance

Will- Both of those cars are dicontinued. If they did such a great job, then they would still be around.

— PlanoA4 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 1:33:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

will,
the aston martin set doesn't want a car, they want parties, the right people to meet, the jets, the helicopters (aston send one out if your db9 breaks down), the branded watches and clothes, the limo to take you to the dealer.
ultra rich is the word (does lexus have a monaco dealership?).
they are a very demanding market.
no aston martin customer would consider anything japanese.
the lexus won't compete with aston either.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 1:40:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -6   

Rupert,
also no aston martin customer would consider anything american or anything made by Ford. Aston Martin is Aston Martin no matter who owns AM.

— Luxurious (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 1:48:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Its true...get over it. Japan builds good reliable cheap cars (which sell the most). Yes they have high end cars but the base foundation to their business are the cheap, reliable, econocars. Astin Martin is far from that and only Lexus can come close to what Astin customers want/need. Acura and Infiniti are not even close.

— dblo7 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 2:34:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -5   

Maybe BMW should step in....

— BimmerFan (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 2:45:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

None of this means that any Japanese company cannot own a high end Auto manufacturer. The only reason the Japanese don't want to own this thing because they see it as a low profit high cost venture. It has nothing to do with the Japanese ability, but more with the philosophy of business. You see if Toyota or Honda owns Aston Martin it won't make a difference to their corporate image as it has made no difference for Ford. So in the end their is very little benefit.

— kart1 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 2:50:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

kart1,
you are exactly right. the japanese know how to make a profit, unlike ford.
aston has NEVER made a profit. EVER.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 3:37:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

As soon as the Japanese can make an expensive and good looking car that is utterly unreliable and comes with a horrible after sales service and rude dealership, they will be ready for the likes of Aston Martin ;-)

In the meantime they can console themselves by selling Lexus 460s, Infinitis, Acura RLs, NSXs(until 2005), and add to this pitiful mix cars like the Lexus LF-A, IS500, Nissan GT-R and whatever the cheap little thing Honda cooks up as a replacement for the exotic NSX.

Truth be told, the Japanese three are too smart to take on the burden of Aston Martin.

It would take a very large amount of dedicated effort, financially and technically to improve the Ford-like quality of the Aston brand.

The Japanese companies did not become the world's richest car companies by being stupid.

Why should they take on the troubles that Ford wishes to throw off its back?

— shiftright (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 3:45:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

There is no way any of the Japanese companies could take on the Aston Martin. Period! Ford seemed to borrow more from the Aston Martin then they provided to AM.

— clifford (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 4:02:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I agree, this would be a very good brand for BMW to pick up.

Cause right now this is the one market they have not entered yet. Even though they own Rolls Royce, they are two total different cars.

Perhaps another German automaker not named Mercedes, BMW or VW (AUDI) may be interested. Hope Porshe is listening!

— sedaine (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 4:28:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

It would seem to me that the "infrastructure" to sell AM autos is already in place. So whoever picks it up would just need to streamline/adjust the process to make it more effecient. And who's the best at reengineering a product and selling it back to folks? I'd have to say our good friends in Japan. No offense intended.

— johannas (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 4:55:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

too much competition for that to happen, sedaine.
porsche would be shooting it self in the foot.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 4:56:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

He who dares to buy it must lift sales volume to make it profitable or at least make it earning money in the next period. Something what Audi did with Lambo. It would for sure be a good image maker.

— dragvorl (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 5:43:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Will,

If Acura can build the NSX
-------------------------------------------

This car was phenomenal in its heyday and still is, but it is not even close to a luxury car like an Aston Martin. The Acura NSX may be a more luxurious version of the Honda NSX, but it doesn't offer anything Aston buyers want: IMAGE. The reason the NSX flopped in Europe is because buyers with money to spend spent it on something that had IMAGE.


Toyota can build the Supra, and the upcoming Lexus supercar.
------------------------------------------

Same thing as the NSX. Awesome car but it has no image as a luxury car. None. Think of it as the affordable performance car for the guy who is picky with money and doesn't care about status.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 5:56:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

If Toyota or any other Japanese company acquired Aston Martin, it would go from being non-profitable and inefficient to one of the most efficient and profitable "ultra-lux" brands ever. That's for sure.
--------------------------------------------

OR

Aston Martin will become one of the most boring luxury coupes on the market with designs that remind of a Corolla, engines that you can't hear and cause the driver to fall asleep at the wheel and lifeless steering.

Just teasing! :p

I have to disagree. Toyota's weakness is that they don't seem to be able to recreate what makes a successful international luxury car. Lexus appeals to Americans because of value etc., that's it. Worldwide, people don't even consider it. Europe is proof of that. Keep Toyota away from Aston Martin, please.

Ford should simply do a better job - which they're slowly beginning to do IMHO.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 6:00:43 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

AUDI should step in. They already own Bentley and Lamborghini which cater to the super rich, why not Astom Martin.

— 07mcs (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 6:27:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

bentley competes with aston martin already.
it would be doing a gm with buick and olds in the same segment.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 7:01:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

That article was senseless.

In a scenario where Toyota bought A-M, would they fire all the staff? They could buy it and keep it completely separate as more of a trophy company, even swallow the occasional loss. Not everything the Japanese do is for money (i.e. S2000, NSX, keeping production in U.S./Canada rather than Mexico or China).

The real prize would be being able to borrow A-M technology/research.

As I said a week or two ago, what's wrong with an ultra-lux Lexus if its guts are 100% A-M?

BMW couldn't afford AstonMartin.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 8:46:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

huu76

You are absolutely right. But maybe toyota is content with what is has right now and concentrates on future products to furether increase its market share, rather than buy AM and have its concentration diversified. There is no doubt that Toyota can build cars that can beat or rival AM cars on performance, sell cheaper, and have the volume that can produce profits. AM cars are perceived as just a sports car maker. There is not much room for growth in terms of product offerings unless it can do a Porsche which took a risk in producing a Cayenne SUV.

— woood (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 10:59:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

byhsu

audi doen't own bently or lambo! the VW group owns audi, lambo, bently, bugatti-not audi itself.

BMW seem like worthy enough candidates to own AM. they don't really have a supercar or lux. sportscar and like RR they would have something else to cater for the super-rich.

— synx (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 11:25:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Honestly, you people.

i will keep this short. Toyota buying Aston Martin is a ridiculous idea. Why? Both companies share completely different mindsets, and both companies produce products which are wildly dissimilar.

I laugh at huu76's assertion that Aston Martin could 'donate' their technology and platforms to the Lexus brand. That is from someone who, I believe is not a car 'enthusiast'. Huu76 is simply a number-basher who cannot think three-dimensionally when on the subject of automobiles.

Toyota are good at bringing to the market mass-produced cars which get people from A-B in the absence of style or flair.

Sorry, I think I'm actually going to cry.

— Matthew1 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/8/2006 11:41:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

This is the way it breaks down. The Volkswagen group owns Audi, Bentley and Skoda among a few other brands, Porsche owns a share of Volkswagen and Audi itself owns Lamborghini.

— GermanNut (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 12:54:48 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

This is the first time I have ever heard of this site and after surfing it for 30 minutes, I am amazed by the comments. It sounds like 90% of you are under the payroll of BMW.

Get serious, in a business standpoint, NO COMPANY should buy Aston Martin. Owning Aston Martin isn't going to help ANYONE and vice versa. Who actually walked into a Ford dealership and said 'Well, Ford owns Aston Martin so I'm going to buy this Ford Taurus!'? That is ridiculous.

— BoLLeH (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 12:57:53 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Mathew,
Oh really, so if Toyota bought BMW, suddenly the cars would lose their 50/50 balance and "handling" features?

That's your logic. AstonMartin would all of a sudden lose it's design appeal if Toyota touched it.

Sounds more like you're worried Toyota could, should and would do it if they wanted to.

Throw a propellor or Star on the hood of a Toyota, I guarantee it's design will miraculously come alive.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 12:58:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Mathew,
Yes, if Toyota bought A-M, the designs would immediately go dull. Just like if they bought BMW, all of a sudden the 50/50 balance and handling would disappear into thin air.

It sounds more as though you're worried Toyota can buy them if they want.

Throw a propellor or Star on the hood and I guarantee you Toyota's designs would miraculously come alive. Nothing new in that kind of argument.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 1:00:41 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

I'm just curious though, what heritage does BMW or Aston Martin have that places it above all other competition?

Finally, the NSX has had more passion than any piece of garbage that BMW has ever made. On the otherhand, it is a pain to get into and is not as luxurious.

BMW530i, I think you should live in Europe for a few years and you'll find out why they'd rather not buy a Japanese luxury class automobile. Everyone there who can afford a luxury-class automobile seriously believes that everything that comes out of their continent is most exotic and luxurious of anything created by the rest of the world.

For God's sake, the majority of the mainland that I interacted with would actually get a ALFA ROMEO if they had the funds. The world is definitely suffering from delirium.

— BoLLeH (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 1:03:38 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

What if Chinese auto company bought....??

Huahahahaha...........!

— elviososa (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 1:24:41 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

writer of the article/blog said: "It would make no sense to aquire another line even at a steal (which Aston Martin, unlike Jaguar, would definitely be not.)"

the fact is, jaguar WAS NOT a steal. when ford bought the cat, consensus was they overpaid for what they got. they got the sizzle, with no bacon. ford had to pump in additional billions to get jaguar where it is today, and it STILL has not earned back all that ford invested.

AM, if it costs even more to begin with, will only be another money sink for whoever is foolish enuff to buy it.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 5:39:57 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

lexus is about to introduce the LF-A (or whatever its final name will be).

consider how the new LS460 has vaulted to new heights in its class (admittedly just on paper so far). the LF-A could also set new benchmarks.

toyota has Formula One experience, and the most advanced auto technology money can buy --if they want to apply it to production.

rather than bother with buying AM and trying to make it profitable, they are far wiser continuing to further boost the image of lexus and expanding the line of sports models.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 5:47:32 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

There is no task that Toyota cannot excel at!
--------------------------------------------

Lexus internationally ring a bell?

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 6:03:15 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

BOLLEH,

BMW530i, I think you should live in Europe for a few years and you'll find out why they'd rather not buy a Japanese luxury class automobile. Everyone there who can afford a luxury-class automobile seriously believes that everything that comes out of their continent is most exotic and luxurious of anything created by the rest of the world.
------------------------------------------------

You're wrong.

I've been travelling to Europe for the last 20 years of my business life. 6-8 times a year for a week or two per trip. I've accumulated enough knowledge about the European car market to talk about it.

Europeans are nationalistic, just like us Americans or the Japanese. Of course they'd prefer to buy their products first, but some can't afford them or like the Japanese offerings better etc. Big deal. Europeans are buying enough Japanese cars, enough that you claiming that they're delirious is false.

The NSX FLOPPED because it was too expensive and had no image - for Europe. I can understand these people. They work hard for their money and then they want to buy a car that says "I've made something with my life." Not every car offers this. You need to go to Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW etc. for this. HONDA? No. Honda in Europe sells mainstream cars and a few Legend's. The NSX, a Honda product, was seen as too expensive and for what? It as no image.

Personally, I love the NSX. It's one of the coolest looking cars to have come out of Japan. Would I buy one? Why not. They're cheaper now and they're awesome. But someone who wants to buy something for status reasons will never consider the NSX. The NSX is an enthusiasts car. An enthusiast who doesn't care about status.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 6:11:39 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

If a Japanese carmaer buys Aston, Aston will lose its badge appeal virtually over night.... What does that mean to the Japanese?? - dont buy because ull lose money, keep making small everyday cars

— CarNut (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 6:34:08 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

What's the rush? Lexus was just introduced as an international brand a year ago! Bottom line, Toyota is big, powerful, rich, and smart. (Basically all the things that Ford are not.) The question is NOT whether or not Toyota can handle Aston Martin, the question is do they want to risk all that money for nothing?
-------------------------------------------

You're being blinded by the success of Lexus in North America. The rest of the world cares about something called "heritage", which Lexus doesn't have.

Sure, they'll sell - but if you ask people what car they really desire, I am willing to bet that Lexus won't even be on the list.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 7:50:34 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

530i,
Enthusiasts should care only about the car, should they not? It's the ppl who care about status that make companies profitable (i.e. BMW going mainstream).

Being too nationalistic and thinking you're the best is dangerous. BMW/MB will fall into the trap that they can put out whatever and Germans will still buy them. Look at current market trends when another company outdoes them.

Lexus has been out a year, and perhaps may never succeed in Europe because they're ignorant. If Lexus wins the rest of the planet over, then they'll be perfactly happy w/o Europe.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 1:53:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

If toyota bought AM, we will b expecting the new aston martin corola with a 1.8 engine, LOL. and ford is doin a good job with AMs.

— M53R (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 2:08:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Lexus has been out a year, and perhaps may never succeed in Europe because they're ignorant. If Lexus wins the rest of the planet over, then they'll be perfactly happy w/o Europe.
------------------------------

Won't happen. The rest of the world seems to care more about prestige than value when it comes to luxury cars. This isn't a generalization though.

However, it will take a lot more from Lexus to topple the big German 3 internationally. If they can't fight them in Europe or Japan, then internationally, they're as good as a flop.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 2:40:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Or they can just wait them out and buy them. Look at what happend to the once mighty British auto industry.

Of the 3 major car markets (China is a red herring imo), Japan owns 2 and is slowly bleeding the European brands of their sales in Europe. It'd be funny if VW was forced to put itself on the block.

In the rest of the world, Toyota/Honda/MB are renowned worldwide, except MB only sells in low volume.

Anyway, one year is hardly a good measure of Lexus' success in Japan.

I just realized, that picture at the top (photo shop?) has hints of Toyota Supra (like it's tricked out).

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 3:37:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

"may never succeed in Europe because they're ignorant."

excuse me?

lexus simply doesn't offer enough models.
no IS or GS estate, no small convertibles, no coupes, no compact cars, no sports cars (and if merc can do that, so can lexus), no halo model, and slightly weird design has put off a lot of people.
when lexus make a good small convertible (ie 3 series sized) they will suddenly have a lot more kudos. but first, an IS estate and a GS reskin.
then the coupes and convertibles.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 4:33:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Carnut - maybe you haven't noticed guy, but Aston is not making any profit.

— kart1 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 4:52:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

VW's Audi owns Lamborghini
BMW owns Rolls Royce
MB owns Mclaren

Then why all the ignorants can't see Toyota owning AM.

BMW530i:
U seriously have some issues with Toyota and Japaneese brands.That impossible to address.
U don't have a problem when VW's Audi,ownning Lamborghini,but now u r jumping the most,that also only at a news that Toyota's Lexus may own AM.

Shows the limits of your jeoulsy,hatred and ignorancy towards TOYOTA.Ohh i can't believe u.
Ohh my GOD,bmw530i,this is just a news that also not from the Toyota,wonder what u do if it becomes real.

Audi gets what they don't truly deserves.They say they r challenging MB's and BMW's Performance divisions,when they still don't have an engine of their own in the Performance division.

Just lifting the same V10 engine from Lambo everytime and dropping into their new performance cars.Therefore saying it's there new car and it will compete against M and AMG.

Make something like BMW's V10 or MB's 6.3 V8.
Compleltely built by them not like Audi lifting from Lambo.HA

U MADE ME SO ANGRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY.............

That goes for all biass Audi fans and for u mainly bmw530i.

----------------------------------------------------
COOL DOWN JUGNU.

Leave it,now to the topic.

I think TOYOTA should not waste a minute,and buy the AM quickly.
They should buy it for their Lexus brand.I think they need it.

They should take the example of AUDI,Look how much helpful they r when creating Performance Cars.
Because they have Lambo in their hands.
They mostly just drop Lambos engine in their new performance cars and therefore becomes a new model for them.They don't do alot.This is how it goes.

AM will help and will be helped in many ways when they will be associated with Toyota/Lexus.
There will be neumerous advantages and benifits for both the brands.

I think they should just do it.


JUGNU----->THE CARMAN

— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 5:04:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

aston is different to lambo though.
aston is british, it needs britishness.
only the germans are as british as the british, hence bmw, vw and merc all ownning british companies.
toyota wouldn't bother. it's not their style. (making a loss isn't their style)

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 6:04:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

the japanese company's beliefs are oppossed to astons, they are like chalk and cheese.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 7:47:06 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Aston Martin NOT about quality?

Will, seriously, your jokes are lame.

— Matthew1 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 9:38:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Rupert,
I'll give you points for the no convert. or wagon, but they offer enough engines (Toyota does anyway). Someone mentioned it and the ignorant part is that they'll buy an inferior car because they perceive themselves as better.

If more of them used reason like the rest of the planet does, then you'd see a lot of models discontinued.

Although I think one reason for accepting to pay more for less is that Europeans probably don't expect to own homes like N.Americans (2700+ sq.ft) so they put extra money into their cars to exude wealth. Spending an extra $10K for a car is easier than an extra $100K for a bigger house. That's my theory.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/9/2006 10:28:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

will, and bmw530: "What's the rush? Lexus was just introduced as an international brand a year ago! Bottom line, Toyota is big, powerful, rich, and smart. (Basically all the things that Ford are not.) The question is NOT whether or not Toyota can handle Aston Martin, the question is do they want to risk all that money for nothing?
-------------------------------------------

You're being blinded by the success of Lexus in North America. The rest of the world cares about something called "heritage", which Lexus doesn't have.

Sure, they'll sell - but if you ask people what car they really desire, I am willing to bet that Lexus won't even be on the list."

"heritage" is one thing, and no one can take away from MB inventing the automobile as we know it.

"prestige" is another matter.

when you come down to it, lexus actually has MORE prestige than MB. there are NO lexus trucks, buses, and other commercial vehicles. there are no lexus A and B segment ECONOMY cars.

MB is concerned enuff about its prestige in north america, it deliberately withholds these less prestigious vehicles from our market.

BMW is prideful too about its prestige, to the extent it wants the world to forget it ever made the bmw "bubble car" in the 1950s. powered by a one-cylinder engine, even the japanese 360 - 660 cc Kei cars outclass it!

it is only a matter of time before the prestige of lexus spreads over the whole planet, following in toyota's footprints.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 4:45:55 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

there's a flip side to this too.

within japan, toyota itself has far more prestige than in external markets, which toyota initially penetrated with their low line economy vehicles. the result, for good or bad, is that few outside japan have as much respect for toyota. they had ONLY been exposed to relatively low line export models.

within japan, toyota is like MB and GM, making a full line of vehicles from econoboxes to LIMOSINES.

lexus was not even used as a brand within japan until recently, because toyota already had V8 and V12 sedans and limos there. the N.A. ls400/ls430 was marketed as "just" a toyota in japan.

domestically, toyota was just as prestigious a nameplate as mercedes in upper range models. (mb did have the cachet of being an "import" luxury car.)

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 4:59:03 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Jugnu,

U seriously have some issues with Toyota and Japaneese brands.That impossible to address.
U don't have a problem when VW's Audi,ownning Lamborghini,but now u r jumping the most,that also only at a news that Toyota's Lexus may own AM.
---------------------------------------------

Wow, you Toyota nuts get so defensive about every little bad comment about your brand. I have NO problems with Toyota or Lexus, and I certainly wouldn't have a problem with Toyota buying Aston Martin if they can give me the feeling that they will MANAGE IT PROPERLY. Right now, the way they're handling Lexus overseas, I am not getting that feeling.


Shows the limits of your jeoulsy,hatred and ignorancy towards TOYOTA.
---------------------------------------

So, one small negative whisper about Toyota and I am a Toyota-hater? Nice logic, dipshit.


Audi gets what they don't truly deserves.They say they r challenging MB's and BMW's Performance divisions,when they still don't have an engine of their own in the Performance division.
-----------------------------------------

Audi sources some engine from Lamborghini, so what? By your logic, the old Lexus LS430 must have been the biggest POS on the planet because the 4.3-l V8 came from a TOYOTA CELSIOR.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 6:38:37 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

ApexAlex,

when you come down to it, lexus actually has MORE prestige than MB. there are NO lexus trucks, buses, and other commercial vehicles. there are no lexus A and B segment ECONOMY cars.

MB is concerned enuff about its prestige in north america, it deliberately withholds these less prestigious vehicles from our market.

BMW is prideful too about its prestige, to the extent it wants the world to forget it ever made the bmw "bubble car" in the 1950s. powered by a one-cylinder engine, even the japanese 360 - 660 cc Kei cars outclass it!

it is only a matter of time before the prestige of lexus spreads over the whole planet, following in toyota's footprints.
------------------------


Apparently you are not well-informed about BMW or Mercedes in this case.

In Mercedes' case, it was cars like their TRUCKS, BUSES, TAXIS etc. that helped their PRESTIGE. Mercedes has always made cars "for the common" man too. They started producing tractors, trucks and buses in the 1910's and 1920's. It's part of their heritage.

Go to South America, Africa, Asia or Europe, where you see a million Mercedes trucks and taxis. People STILL WANT a Mercedes' despite seeing an S-Class next to a Mercedes dumptruck. The build quality of their taxis was a major contributer to the image of Mercedes. So what if it had cloth seats, a manual and a diesel engine upfront? It was a Mercedes and it was built like a tank and lasted. That's the reason taxi services in Europe and Asia (Hong Kong especially) all ordered Mercedes'.

Check out this thread and look what the thread starter wrote about Mercedes. Look at the different pictures of what type of cars they offered etc.

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35257

These cars gave the brand a lot of its prestige. Even if Lexus doesn't have these things, so what? Jaguar doesn't have trucks or buses? And worldwide, people still prefer a Mercedes to a Jaguar.



BMW?

BMW, like MB, was in ruins after World War II. In order for these companies to survive, they had to offer smaller cars like the Isetta or BMW 700 / 800's. Mercedes sold their 170V's and 170D's. So what? At this point, the last thing on the minds of both companies was a market entry into the United States. Survival was the objective.

Go to Europe, people talk fondly of the BMW Isetta, with it's 13-hp 1-cylinder engine, or the Mercedes 170D, which took a minute to reach 62 mph. Fact is, these cars might be laughable today, but back then, they were cars that were needed and sought after and they put both brands up where they are today.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 7:10:11 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

huu, i suppose you are right.
housing is very expensive here. in london, in a nice suburb, a 4 bed 3 bath house with a garden and no off-street parking is about 1 million dollars. in a nicer suburb, 1.5 million. add a garage, bigger garden etc and you're looking at the wrong side of 2 million.
a car is a better way to show wealth, even if you end up paying more for a bimmer than a lexus.

toyota offers enough engines, but the options on lexi are limited. think about the s class, just released, has 4 engines here (320cdi, 350, 550, 65 amg) in europe there's probably the 420cdi too, and there is a 450, and 63 amg in the pipeline. lexus has 1 engine option on the ls, no diesel, no cheaper option. the IS has 2 options here (250, 220d) the 3 series has 7.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 10:27:54 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

BMW530i
Audi sources some engine from Lamborghini, so what? By your logic, the old Lexus LS430 must have been the biggest POS on the planet because the 4.3-l V8 came from a TOYOTA CELSIOR.

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U r a fool when u say Lexus lifted the 4.3l V8 from Celsior,when they were already the same car basically with different badges for different World car markets.(previous generation).
It's like saying VW rabbit lifted the 2.0 I4 engine from the golf,when they r basically the same car,with different badges in different World car markets.


JUGNU

— JUGNU (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 11:10:45 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Jugnu,

Yep, I am a fool. *SARCASM*

There's nothing wrong with Audi sourcing engines from companies they own. Nothing.

It's been done throughout automotive history. Lincoln sourced BMW turbodiesel engines during the 1980s for one of their sedans and coupes. Chrysler used Mitsubishi engines and even sold rebadged Mitsubishi's in the US.

Big deal.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 1:28:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

530i,
Why wouldn't Toyota be able to manage A-M if the owned it? Basically to lower costs, just rebadge some A-M as Lexus to increase production volume (I'm sure they'd sell well in N.America), call it a bigger SC if you want. Aside from that, leave the marketing et al separate.

Rupert,
Perhaps they should offer a diesel if it is that popular in high-end models. Maybe the reason for not offering a smaller gas engine is that they want their model to be uplcass only, meaning if you want one, you'll have to pay for it. Exclusivity does help with prestige. Lexus knows they'll make money on the LS in the U.S., so the LS's job in Europe is to raise Lexus' image.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 2:00:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

"So what about the Japanese "three"? The automakers simply lack the experience and infrastructure to cater to Aston Martin buyers."
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What a bunch of crap. They don't want Aston Martin because Honda has Acura, Nissan has Infiniti, and Toyota has Lexus. They don't need Aston Martin, especially since they don't sell many.

— lexusis350 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 3:15:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

huu,
i suppose that's true.
exclusivity is cheaper than advertising.
the IS is their bread and butter here, and they stuck a diesel in that. maybe we'll get a gs diesel next, that size market lives on them. (i NEVER see petrol e classes, always diesel)

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 9/10/2006 6:03:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

huu76,

Why wouldn't Toyota be able to manage A-M if the owned it? Basically to lower costs, just rebadge some A-M as Lexus to increase production volume (I'm sure they'd sell well in N.America), call it a bigger SC if you want. Aside from that, leave the marketing et al separate.
------------------------------------

Rebading them as Lexus is a BAD IDEA. Your typical Aston Martin buyer won't be thrilled. That's the best way to ruin the brand

If Toyota buys Aston Martin, they should simply RUN IT PROPERLY and keep the Lexus badges away.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/11/2006 5:03:19 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

BMW530i,
Why would A-M customers care? Their technology is being filtered down, not "inferior" technology brought up.
MB doesn't seem to care their tech goes into Chrysler. Lambourghini doens't care their engines winds up in an Audi.
For the most part, they wouldn't even have to know (I'm not saying Toyota should advertise that A-M now provides lower end Lexus models).

A-M customers don't like being associated with a Japanese company? Nver had any problems with Ford buying them.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/11/2006 12:35:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

huu76,

Toyota supplying AM with technology isn't a bad idea. But you mentioned rebadging them as Lexus': that's a bad idea. Lexus and AM designs are different and people will notice that. AM has a history to brag about, Lexus is creating one. AM and Lexus values are different. Someone who buys an AM relies on emotions and desire. Lexus strike me as being bought for value and feel-good-factor.

Keep the two brands apart and just run them the way they should be run.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 9/11/2006 2:44:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

synx-

If other people haven't yelled at you already, Audi owns Lamborghini, yes, all 100% of it. VW owns Audi, Skoda, Seat, Bentley, and Bugatti. Porsche owns VW. So, it's quite a small world over at VW AG, what with all the companies indirectly competing for buyers.

JUGNU-

"BMW530i:
U seriously have some issues with Toyota and Japaneese brands.That impossible to address.
U don't have a problem when VW's Audi,ownning Lamborghini,but now u r jumping the most,that also only at a news that Toyota's Lexus may own AM."

Completely off the point. Lexus is far from an international brand; Audi is a success and sells well WORLDWIDE. America is a poor indication of Audi's world reputation. Europe and Asia are where it's especially popular. Audi has the means, the experience and the TECHNOLOGY--this is where Audi really excells--to comply with Lamborghini, while Lexus isn't much of a leader in any of those areas. Before Lexus owns some traditional British brand that makes sexy coupes, they need a little experience making their OWN sexy cars.

— S4cabriofox (View Profile)

Posted on 9/11/2006 11:37:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

530i,
Unless A-M's are hand made, I don't see any problems on the reliability side that Toyota can't fix.

Even if they are, they can manage to automate the lower end ones and rebadge them as Lexus. The long term goal would be to keep A-M separate (advertising could say real A-M are still handmade) while keeping costs in control (maybe a 5 year plan).

Upping Toyota parts into A-M would be a definite no-no, just from a perceptual basis. Dropping a-M research (doesn't necessarily have to be actual parts) would benefit Lexus' rep in Europe).

But unless Toyota actually bought them, all this is just conjecture.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/12/2006 12:59:55 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

OK, let's get certain things straight:

1. AM IS profitable;
2. AM is highly desirable and there are plenty of suitors for it;
3. What we're seing now is a poker/blufing game. Some of these companies who claim that are not interested are actualy very interested.

— DarkOneForce (View Profile)

Posted on 9/12/2006 6:33:37 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Wonder what Toyota saying nothing means? Getting ready to write a big fat cheque and outbid everyone? I've got my toes crossed.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/12/2006 11:51:51 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1