Why Lexus is the superior car compared to any German product.

Oh great, another flame war thread...

Someone please lock this thread...

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 2:24:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Lexus cars having taken the crown in reliability and excellennce in quality are now poised to dethrown the Germans from the performance arena as well.
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What incredible bullshit. You are talking about the future, which has not even occured yet. I don't think Lexus will be dethroning anyone here at all. Lexus does not make (and probably never will) performance cars for the "purists". Purists will never consider a Lexus performance car unless they offer a manual and a credible suspension and steering feel to back up the driving experience.


Making enormous horsepower as in an AMG does not mean much without quality control and reliability; the Corvette and the Ford GT40 and the Dodge Viper make a lot of power too, but the quality and reliability is lacking. Lexus WILL change that and that will be the difference between an ORDINARY performance car and in a performance car made by Lexus.
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Oh spare me. First, you attack AMG and then you attack America's best sports cars with some reliability crap. Stop the trolling. Seriously, stop it. Reliability isn't everything. Your average Ferrari owner still buys their Ferrari because of what the car stands for, not because it is reliable. And FYI, European brands are getting better at reliability - except, these things won't show on JD Power overnight, it takes some years to show up. So spare me.

Want to know something else? The Ford GT and Corvette and AMG have TRADITION and HERITAGE. Something your Lexus performance division won't be achieving anytime soon. Racing history and victories create heritage here. Last time I checked, Toyota really had nothing to brag about in motor sports. Nothing.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 2:29:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

WOW..if a thread speaks FOR Lexus it is a flame but one that favors the Germans it should be allowed??

Very fair in your mind I am sure but I am simply stating the facts.

— shiftright (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 2:29:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

17 years ago whoever thought that lexus was going to succeed, but look at them now. They're kickin' German butt.

— dualexhaust (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 2:31:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

or atleast trying to kick german butt

— dualexhaust (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 2:33:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

"And FYI, European brands are getting better at reliability"
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Man that is lame.....it's like saying that little Tommy is not bed wetting as much anymore. You have any proof of this improving quality or are you just blowing hot air asusual?

— shiftright (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 2:34:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

WOW..if a thread speaks FOR Lexus it is a flame but one that favors the Germans it should be allowed??
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Why do you act like a friggin child? This is a free country, say what you like, but make sure it is factual and honest, not BIASED.

And the European brands have made great strides towards reliability improvement. FYI, I don't only read JD Powers, but JD Powers Europe and a number of European sources in English whenever available. I like to keep myself informed. Progress in European cars in Europe means this progress will reach our shores.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 2:39:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

keep dreaming in your own little world.

— maikoazu (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 2:45:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Well said Tifosi. You said it nice and CALM. I need to calm down. :p

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 2:51:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Sigh. I have a dream... that one day American cars will once again be included in the who's better battles.

Maybe one of these decades.

— webguy (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:02:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Where do we start?
**********

>Lexus sales, globally and especially in the US are rising faster than any German brand?

Simply untrue, only in America do the lead any sales charts, actually they are pretty dismal outside the US.

**********

>Lexus Initial quality is above any German make
>Lexus Reliability is above any German make

Only in the flawed JD Power Surveys not in any other survey globally. Too bad recalls don’t factor in that. Parent company Toyota has recalled more cars globally this year than they have produced. Those are issues that would decimate the reliability factor if they were incorporated.

**********

>Lexus has the most repeat buyers of any luxury car

Blue haired grannies that used to buy Buick’s and are the target audience, they typically don't like change and require simplistic cars. However The German cars to begin with are not luxury cars they are “Premium Makers" a totally different segment. To compare them belies a total ignorance to knowledge of the industry. Might as well compare Kia to Ferrari.


>Mercedes, BMW and Audi have fewer and decreasing repeat buyers

Documentation please: they are increasing in demand as sales attest. BMW has the highest loyalty rate in the industry attracting buyers in their 20's and hanging on to them until their 70's. Lexus doesn't even start really appealing to their core until they hit their 50's. I have published proof in previous articles.

**********

>Lexus entered the Luxury car segment about 17 years ago and it has increased its sales at a rate that has shaken the segment.

So has Hyundai. Massive sales is not a factor in quality, it is an economic value only. It does indicate one stellar marketing approach.

**********

>Lexus is now embarking on a Performance Luxury segment with great energy and is about to introduce the F1 engine and chassis derived LF-A and the 400hp+ IS500.

LF-A V10 was changed to a corporate V8 as of last week; the chassis is not F1 based in any regard other than it has four wheels. This is an attempt to justify Toyota’s fruitless F1 efforts.

**********

>Lexus has the most varied and useful Hybrid line up, incorporating it into the Camry, the GSh and soon the flagship LS460h;

I’ll give you that on the hybrids (too bad they copied the idea from Honda), but woefully inadequate diesel technology, the global choice for frugal consumption..

**********

>Lexus cars having taken the crown in reliability and excellence in quality are now poised to dethrone the Germans from the performance arena as well.

Really not anywhere’s close. Please name a model, none come to mind. Don’t compare top line models of Lexus to bottom line German models to prove the point.

**********

>Making enormous horsepower as in an AMG does not mean much without quality control and reliability; the Corvette and the Ford GT40 and the Dodge Viper make a lot of power too, but the quality and

— PlanoA4 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:04:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

**********

>Making enormous horsepower as in an AMG does not mean much without quality control and reliability; the Corvette and the Ford GT40 and the Dodge Viper make a lot of power too, but the quality and reliability is lacking. Lexus WILL change that and that will be the difference between an ORDINARY performance car and in a performance car made by Lexus.

To be seen, merely a lofty comment at this time.

— PlanoA4 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:06:51 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

shiftright- this is a never ending saga it made no sense to even go down this road again. I think it has been posted a zillion times with the same arguments, the only difference here was a bunch of misinformation you posted. You would be far better off posting real facts based off of URL's not specualtion. The thread will probalby over over 100 post and gain not a thing.

Basically you did a diservice to Auto Spies by posting it.

— PlanoA4 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:11:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

I believe the engine from the IS220d is sourced from Toyota. No problems with that, but Lexus should offer it in the Euro GS as well. The best selling 5er's and E-Classes are the E220 CDI and 520d / 525d.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:12:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

why are people still allowed to post this crap on here? Isn't there a screening process? C'mon 007.

— phantom330 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:13:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Saying Lexus is not a player in the luxury market is like saying the Lakers aren't a real basketball team simply because you like the Nets.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:20:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

PlanoA4, for someone who spends his entire day searching for car related stories and then posting on a board such as this, you seem hopelessly misinformed and very prejudiced against Lexus/Japanese cars.

Nevertheless, this post was in response to this post:
http://autospies.com/news/Lexus-is-Inferior-to-Audi-BMW-and-Mercedes-Benz-8025/

— shiftright (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:24:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

shiftright.

shift right out of here. this is the latest joke ive ever heard, LOL. Lexus ( a rebadged toyota) surpassing the masters ( germans ofcourse) keep dreaming .

— M53R (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:25:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

If any of you have already been to Germany, you may have seen one or two Lexus (not the LS, but only an old IS or GS).
German Luxury Cars are the One and Only.
Look at these Japanese Luxury, it is just a poor try to get on the level Mercedes is since there are cars.
Sorry, but only Americans who do not have any knowledge about cars buy Lexus - next to its cheaper prices.
The interior does not fit to the Interior...Toyotas guys have to improve if they want to get on the same level as german cars are.

— Excelero (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:35:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

It's funny how people dismiss Lexus as being merely "rebadged Toyotas."

Point of fact is that your average Toyota is better built than most Mercs and BMWs. You can argue the point, but you will be arguing against a decade's plus worth of awards and recognitions.

Lexus cars benefit from their relationship to Toyota, not suffer for it.

BMW, Mercedes, and Audi build great cars. But, Lexus does too. Why is that a problem for so many people here?

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:37:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

Where's Will?

— johannas (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 3:53:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

This is getting silly now...

When i first started to visit autospies it was because it looked like a place wher a broad amount of knowledge about new stuff in the car industry could be found.

The flame wars these days render the site not much more than an annoyance.

If the admins/mods/webmasters are reading this...

My advice, get some forum software and put all this endless cycle of crap about who's best in a seperate place and keep this part of the site open for facts and news... not a way of allowing this kind of stuff to be passed off as fact or intelligent discussion.

This is not a stab at autospies, just some of it's users.

— matt635 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 4:22:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

who posts this crap? this ruins the sight. it's not informative or even something worth discussing cause it was posted to make a cat fight, not a discussion. whoever posted this should be banned from further postings

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 4:23:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

So why buy a Lexus when you can get a toyota and save ton of change? Answer?

— maikoazu (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 4:27:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

so, theres a posting about new holdens being released. i don't care if you have no interest in holden at all, but it beats talking about this crap over and over.

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 4:40:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

1st post was dumb (German superior to Lexus)

2nd is even more stupid...

why even comment?

— Jovi (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 4:48:05 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

"So why buy a Lexus when you can get a toyota and save ton of change? Answer?"

For the same reason one would purchase a CL55 Mercedes instead of a C280: feature content, styling, etc.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 4:51:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I'm researching for a new car. Now I'm not saying Lexus' are bad so nobody freak. What surprised me is how much less expensive the LS is. (The outgoing model) Now that they're offering the long wheelbase version and the 600h, which I believe are priced comprably to the German sedans, it will be interesting to see how they do. At 10,000 less than the German sedans I can see how they might be appealing but, as someone in the market $100,000.00 Merc or $100,000 Lexus there's very little for me to think about. I'd go for the Merc in a heartbeat, Ford fender flares and all.

— iown1 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 4:53:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

No body Owns the True. BUt I feel I am right, more than the most here. LEXUS WILL NEVER BUILD A CAR LIKE FERRARI, AND THATS FINAL. Why? for the same reason that the Mercedes never will do a BMW an BMW Will never create a car like the Mercs. (Mercs are my favorites). But all this manufacturers have diferent PHILOSOPHY. Mercedes Looks for Security, luxury and comfort and Power. BMW Looks for Sport Driving, Security comfort and luxury in that order. Lexus is a good company but they have a defined philosophy modeled by the COMMERCE. The will create cars to be a success in sales, at the end the will success but TheY will never have heritage even after 100 years due the commercial interest will not provide you, any sence of other human feelings that the germans try to keep in mind every time that they create a car. The Lexus Sport car will be good But it will lack of pasion, It will be modeled in a wind tunel, Management will decide what is profitable or not and of course, every part, if not all, will be designed by a computer and based on statistics. Sure BMW, Audi and Merc use computers but the final decision is done by a Human being. Every time tha BMW try to do something the Merc SL, they fail. Every time that Merc Try to create an M3, they Fail. Lexus will do a great car, no doubt, But if they attempt to do something like any Ferrai: They fail and thats final.

— Yonder7 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 4:54:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

iown1, i think after the "new release" buzz dies down there may be a lot to that notion. the $100k mark is what heads of state and REAL drug kingpins drive, i wonder if they will buy the lexus.

i'm not in the market, nor have i even sat in either, but i have a feeling these buyers are going to lean towards the benz.

this may be lexus' biggest test yet. we know they have the ability to make a less expensive car, so they could be at least competitive with the 3-series in terms of sales. but taking on the s-class is a huge leap.

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 5:04:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

This article is stupid.
Why do all lexus fans want a german car free world?
All cars have their pros and cons.

If you like lexus go ahead, buy it. but dont tell the world that lexus is the world best brand because most others disagree.
I personally like german cars the best, but i dont post stupid articles like this saying "GERMAN CARS RULE" cause everyone has different opinions.

— audirevolution (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 5:06:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

I don't think Lexus is trying build the like of Ferrari, BMW or even MB. I know Lexus is trying to build another supercar segement, where not only the car will go unbeliefly fast but still have all the luxuary in the world within the car.

In fact I think Lexus will eventually build a supercar that is equally on the same level of the Ferrari or Lambo. Dare I might say that in the future Lexus might build a better car than Ferrari or Lambo.

Yeah sure all you idiots...out there say no that will never happen, yeah right. Back in the 80s Ferrari and Lambo is and still are a big name. But now you so much competitor out there competing in this segement. The Buggati Veyron with 1001 hp, Saleen S7, Koensigg ccx, M6, MB AMG. Everyone had their own tastse buy what want according to need.

Lexus

— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 5:10:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

1995e34

this may be lexus' biggest test yet.

I completely agree. I'll test drive one, but that car would need to be damn near perfect. Who knows maybe I'm in for a surprise. Now I have an A8L and I can promise you, it's going to be hard to beat.

— iown1 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 5:12:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

that A8L has the best back seat ever. i sat in one at an auto show last year, and was absolutely amazed. more rear seat legroom than in any car i've ever seen.

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 5:15:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

lexus, (the user)
"In fact I think Lexus will eventually build a supercar that is equally on the same level of the Ferrari or Lambo."

why would they?
it isn't a particulairly profitable market, it doesn't sell high, reliability and quality doesn't matter that much, it costs a huge amount to enter into, and needs lots of advertising.

bmw don't, mercedes has one car (which was a collaberation), audi owns lambo, but lambo have always done that.
there is no financial incentive for lexus to build a ferrari competitor, and as "nice" lexus may seem, they are out there to do one thing, make money.
also, this article makes a slip.
:Lexus has the most varied and useful Hybrid line up, incorporating it into the Camry"
I KNEW IT.
lexi are camrys...

anyway, this article is very stupid.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 5:20:02 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

1995e34

I usually drive myself, but on those occasions when I have a driver (airports, etc...) that back seat comes in handy. It is amazingly comfortable and spacious.

— iown1 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 5:32:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Will

I definetly plan on it. This is the first Lexus I've ever considered, so, at least as far as I'm concerned, they're improving. But again, like I said above, for someone ready to throw down a $100,000+ on his next car, the Lexus needs to be perfect. This is just my opinion (again, as someone in the market, it's somewhat valid) but Lexus can't be "as good as" in this segment. If they are relying on that (and I'm not saying they are) it's going to be difficult for them. They have to be considerably better. You and I both know their competition in this segment is not only formidable but established. I know dozens of people who don't even order new S Classes; they simply arrive when the old lease runs out. That being said, when it arrives I plan on test driving one and I've almost always had German cars. They're moving in the right direction.

— iown1 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 6:06:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

That is a stupid answer. You are comparing 2 totally different vehicles that do not compete against each other. Try two vehicles that are similar in size and specs. Take the case between the Camry XLE V6 and the Lexus ES 350. They both have the save "feature content, styling, etc." but one is at least $5k more. How do you justify that?

— maikoazu (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 6:16:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I have to say my part on this as well, in short, Lexus brand is far better than the Germans, the only think Lexus lacks now is the driving excitement, as for the horsepower it defeated the Germans long time ago IF head to head engines are compared, and I beleive the Japanese will get the driving excitement in their sedans as well in few more years. Then what is left for the Germans to brag about? Hmmm, Prestige I guess.

— Designer1 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 6:23:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Still Lexus is lacking the substance to beat German brands

— MB3494 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 6:43:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

530i,
Arguing about being an enthusiast doesn't carry weight anymore, especially when the purist's car gets outperformed by what they deem as one beneath them.

Toyota has enough racing know how to brag that BMW can't beat them in F1. Look, Toyota justed moved ahead again (28-26). So much for heritage. It's nice if you like it as long as you don't think it's some kind of performance enhancer.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 6:44:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

"That is a stupid answer. You are comparing 2 totally different vehicles that do not compete against each other. Try two vehicles that are similar in size and specs. Take the case between the Camry XLE V6 and the Lexus ES 350. They both have the save "feature content, styling, etc." but one is at least $5k more. How do you justify that?"

The modern day Camry and ES are about as similar as a VW Phaeton and an Audi A8.

If you see them as the same car then there is no reason. However, an intelligent person can see styling differences (the fact that there is not one shared body panel between them), upgraded interior materials (leather quality etc.), features you can get on an ES but not a Camry (Mark Levinson audio, glass roof, etc.)

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 6:47:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Rupert Is right. Lexus is always looking for the way to make MONEY, Sure Audi, Bimer and Merc likes money, but the approach is diferent. and I am not saying that Lexus is bad car, in fact is so good that is doing history, but what make you love a woman is near of what make you love a car, even if that is not perfect.

— Yonder7 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 6:59:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

An intelligent person would save $5k - $10k

— maikoazu (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 7:10:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

ToyLex is a car made for wannabes and the German machines are for real drivers.

Even the name Lexus sounds like some firm that comes up with names named it.

— EL34 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 7:29:05 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

The only thing that Lexus V10 engine would have with the F1 V10 engine is the number of cylinders.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 7:47:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Lets face it. Lexus buyer wants the snob appeal. They want to pull up against a Toyota and say, "I’ve got a Lexus. I’m better." But the person in the Toyota just smile because he know he has an extra $5-$10k in the bank. And when it’s time to get a new car a few years down the road, his saving would have double or maybe even triple if he invested it wisely.

— maikoazu (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 7:49:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

I'd say it's pity. Lexus buyers pitying the Germans for trading in performance for a couple of measly badges. The IS/GS and LS are already different cars than Toyota. What are you fellas going to say when the next ES isn't a Camry?

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 8:01:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

huu76, the ES will always be a camry. what else would they base it off? if they switch to rwd, then they are infringing on GS and IS sales. the ES' sole existance is based on buyers that want a bit more luxury than a camry/avalon but don't quite want a GS.

it is a smart marketing scheme. but only the japanese can pull it off due to their ties with volume focused platforms.

and the IS, GS, and LS are different than toyotas depending on what market you are refering to.

tell me the difference between the altezza and IS, or between the reiz and the GS.

these cars are different than toyota? well, 2 production cycles ago, the reiz was refered to as the toyota cressida.

i don't prefer the lexus badge because i think it's a direct attempt to appeal to vanity and materialism. toyota has a good enough reputation that these models could sell ANYWHERE as toyotas.

— 1995e34 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 8:51:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Wow! It feels like 1989 in here.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 9:12:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Sorry Will, but you are wrong. The IS is based on Japanese Toyota Crown.

http://www.caranddriver.com/carnews/9877/lexus-takes-aim-at-the-bmw-3-series-again.html

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 10:07:10 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

However, completely different cars can be built on common platforms. That just shows good use of design. I just pointed it out as you seemed very confident.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 10:08:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Lets get the facts straight here, Lexus WAS based of Toyota models, but all the new model IS, ES & LS cars are NOT based on Toyota cars anymore. Can you get an Altezza in the shape of the current IS250/350? NO. Can you get the new LS460 in a Toyota Crown?? NO... Why? because Lexus has launched its brand is Japan hence they are seperating from parent company toyota.

Obviously Lexus started out by making a Toyota model (ES-camry, IS-altezza, GS-Aristo etc) more luxurious, well appointed, quieter, more tightly bolted together, etc etc...There is no denying that, but they've succeeded in the USA (as sales volumes shows). So now they've created a brand name & a loyal following towards Lexus.

Maikoazu, yes the money wise person would save the extra 5-10k difference but thats because the money wise person prob. cant affoard it in the first place. I've driven an Altezza & IS300 (have u 1995e46?) and although they look the same from the outside, they drive & feel different. The Altezza is well..a Toyota and the IS300 is more luxrious, smoother & better built HENCE the price difference. Would i pay the price difference? Yes, Why? because its a Lexus. Which leads me to the next point...

BMW, MB & Audi, all of which have great heritage, racing history and great cars. Sure you guys bash us Lexus fans because we don't have the heritage/history that you German cars have, but thats fine. But remember this, reputation can only account for so much and the car manufacturer is only as good as the car that it currently produces...reputation alone does not make a car better.

Let me put hisoty/reputation in context. For arguments sake, if person x was to choose between the fully appointed BMW 3 Series or a Lexus IS 350 without test driving the two cars, he would choose the BMW. There you go..reputation won that battle. But if person x was to test drive them both he would probably choose the Lexus because it does everything else better than a BMW 3 except for going around a race track faster.

— UBC888 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 10:51:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

UBC888=Very well put!

— Homer008 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 11:04:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

The content of the post is subpar, but the real problem is actually the tense which suggests more wishful thinking than actual fact. I suggest you the tense and repost so at least it looks like you know what you're talking about..

— TheGenius (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 11:29:39 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

UBC888,

That is exactly what I've been saying all along. It has been proven time after time that Heritage/History doesn't make the car. With a company like Lexus, you don't need the history or heritage. Why? Because Lexus' vehicles have already succeeded German brands in almost every category. Lexus is living proof that history doesn't build the car.

— lexusis350 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 11:53:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

^
And by almost every category, I mean performance. As much as I hate to admit it, German brands do very well with performance. But, that's not enough. Lexus is also turning to performance. Soon, there won't be anything Lexus is behind on.

— lexusis350 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/29/2006 11:57:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Lexus is in it to make as much money as possible and thats it. Germans are there to build cars that matter and that improve the driving experience for all consumers and to move the industry forward. Depending on what you value, a comapny's pure greed or innovation, thats the side of the argument you will support.

— vcowman (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 12:26:26 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

-Lexus is in it to make as much money as possible and
-thats it. Germans are there to build cars that matter

whaaaa the hell r u talking about. if ur company keeps making money then ur company can keep moving forward. make no money, then bye bye

— sewingmachine (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 12:38:23 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

vcowman,

yes of course Lexus is in it to make money, thats the whole objective for any car manufacturer.
Are you saying the Germans aren't in it for the money too? If not, then how can BMW & MB go racing in F1? I'm sure they're making phat profits somewhere down the line.

However, what each car company brings to the automotive industry is different.

BMW & MB bring innovation, fresh ideas, designs (esp bmw) and thats great - they move the industry forward, but thats because the competition is strong b/w BMW, MB, Audi & Lexus. Otherwise we would all get boring car with only a few innovations now and then.
Lexus have been trying to redefine what the definition of luxury is (a bar which was set by the Germans). Lexus are comming in at a different angle/approach than the Germans for example, Customer satisfaction is one of them....

— UBC888 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 12:53:01 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

"Lexus is in it to make as much money as possible and thats it"


wow thats not ironic at all. Im sorry, somebody refresh my memory, which brands charge you more for stuff that wont work later? oh yeah thats right, mercedes

— LexusKindaGuy12 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 1:58:46 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

vcowman,

Last time I checked Lexus and every other automotive company was a business. What do ALL businesses try to do? Make Money! If Germanic car companies were only in it for the "innovation" then they would donate all their yearly net profits to charity or something.

— 00JT (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 2:01:45 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Yonder7, you can't really believe that German makes have less interest in making money than Lexus? Wow, people can make themselves believe anything to prove a point.
Vcowan, same thing. My God!! Do you believe any company has any motivation other than to make money? get a grip.

EL34, where do you live that makes you think "real drivers" are driving Bimmers. I'll tell you who drives them, two mid 30's women, social workers, in my office. That's a pretty accurate read on the demo. Enthusiasts, my ass.

BMWExpert, not much of an Expert on Lexus, are you. They dont, and never have, used woodgrain. It's real, very high quality wood. BTW, what is MBTex? My last Merc had it, it sure didnt feel like leather.

Chewy, the IS is not based off the Crown or any other Toyota model. Wy must you German fans always lie?

And finally Plano, while I am sick of all these threads, if you're gonna argue the facts of this poster, get yours srtaight. Opinions arent facts. Your responses are just as much opinions as shiftright's. Your opinion on quality, opinion on what constitutes rising (or not) sales, opinion on who Lexus buyers are, and saying that Toyota copied hybrids from Honda, you know that in Japan, Toy was 1st. I expect better arguments out of you. C'mon at least try.

Finally, what are all the German fans going to cry about now that the IS, GS and LS have VDIM cut off switches? So much for German cars having the market on handling and engaging driver experiences. Wow, Lexus listened to Customers and made a change the very next year. Hmmm.....Is I-Drive still around?

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 2:36:57 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Why buy a Lexus when you can have the real thing? I'll take my crappy Bimmer in silver please...

— Danton (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 4:23:52 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

1970toyotamarc

You accuse others of passing opinion off as fact.. but you state BMW enthusiasts don't exist, and that the majority of BMW's customer base is 30-40 year old women... yeah thats really accurate reporting.

I am a BMW enthusiast, I have two, I am 27 and I'm male.

I could retaliate with a comment about lexus owners, but out of everyone I know (4 BMW's, 3 Mercs, 1 VW, 1 Aston Martin, 1 Audi, 1 Chrysler, 1 Alfa Romeo and 1 Toyota) None of them actually bought a Lexus.

— matt635 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 4:24:21 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

huu76,

So, Toyota's recent successes in Formula One mean they will "obtain a sporting image". I got news for you, NO.

Look at the racing history of BMW and Mercedes, you will find impressive and famous racing cars there that were technologically innovative and WON races or championships. Look at Audi's success in rallying in the 1980s. These things build a sporting heritage and image.

As far as I know, Toyota's few victories in F1 are not enough to put them on the same level as the big German 3 luxury brands. That's all I am really saying. I am not ranting or flaming Toyota, though I was bit annoyed with Shiftrights ridiculous post.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 4:37:09 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Lexus IS350,

Lexus is living proof that history doesn't build the car.
-------------------------------------------------

Sorry, but that comment is totally wrong.

You're basically saying: "Lexus is living proof that by copying other carmakers, they can advance...". Seriously.

History DOES BUILD cars. History put the German brands where they are today. Throughout their existence (aka "history") they built, innovated and created and learned how to build cars etc.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 4:39:38 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

BMW530i following lexus puts german cars where they are today

— Lexlover (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 7:00:32 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

vcowman,
that has to be the stupidest comment,
"Lexus is in it to make as much money as possible and thats it. Germans are there to build cars that matter and that improve the driving experience for all consumers and to move the industry forward."
absolutley not.
bmw put in idrive because it would save money on switches, would provide them with a new technology to increase sales, and would give bmw an edge.
not because they thought it would be cool.
mercedes invented pre-safe because it is a selling point.
renault concentrated on saftey so it could have a selling point.
nobody invents these things for no reason, they are all there to make money, and that is what they care about.
they care about consumers too, but only to keep them as repeat buyers, not because they like them.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 8:02:33 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Kia is the new innovator and creator of fine luxury autos.. and thats it!!!

--------------

Next:

If Toyota = Lexus then MB = Chrysler

--------------

I feel people are forgetting something very important:

Every Car Co. started from nothing. BMW and Benz did not start with history and Heritage... as they grew and made innovations they grew their heritage.... So with lexus they are doing the same(growing process)... the benefit to them is that they stemmed from Toyota, so they already have a perception on quality and reliability...

if u BMW people are focusing on a racing hertiage, then no lexus doesn't really have one, but I can find about 30 articles about the strides they are taking to become competitive...

In the end Lexus is making history and they are building their heritage...

I think Lex fans are only looking for acknowledgment.. their brand is coming up strong and hard... U BMW guys dont wanna acknowledge.. thats fine... but I can confidently say.. ur asses will be sore in the next few years if u dont pay attention.
--------------------------

Oh and the stupid comment about Lex only trying to turn a profit... Do me a favor, please contact BMW and Benz and tell them to send all proceeds of their sales to me.. if arent trying to make a profit, then I'll take it.

— KinGofNY (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 11:07:05 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

If history is such a big part of the German automakers, then why don't they learn from it?

Why isn't a new 3 series twice as fast as a Lexus IS? Why is the new LS the first to offer an 8 speed transmission? Why did Tesla (an American company) develop an electric performance car before BMW?

And most importantly, since Mercedes has been doing it longer than anyone else, why don't they build the most reliable cars in the world? Why have they been eclipsed by Lexus every year?

History can be important, but not when it leads to arrogance and overconfidence.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 11:23:32 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

answer.. BMW has been developing electric cars since at least the early 80's. They have taken it to the limit and produced 1000+bhp versions of the X5 using hybrid electric technology...

but just as with their H variants (hydrogen powered cars), they are not going to release them until they aren't a compromise, and the infrastructure is their to support them.

— matt635 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 11:42:35 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Here are three quotes from Dan Neil's review of the 2007 Lexus LS 460/460L in today's Los Angeles Times:

"As much as the Lexus nameplate has become the default choice for the sensible careerist looking for a well-built, well-priced luxury car, the brand still ranks near zero Kelvin on the prestige thermometer. You can cite all the ways that Lexus is a great car — best-selling luxury nameplate in the U.S. for six years running, perennially at the top of the J.D. Power heap in initial quality, vehicle dependability, customer satisfaction and return business — and I'll tell you that none of that matters. Compared to luxury brands like Mercedes-Benz, Cadillac, BMW and Audi, Lexus has the emotional appeal of a public golf course."

"Here any tidy explanations of the new LS run out of oxygen, because a car that should have been an expressive and beautiful bit of dream-smithing isn't. It's not a bad-looking sedan, and it does have the look of the L-finesse avatars, but the instant I laid eyes on it, I was disappointed. Compared to the lyrical singspiel of Mercedes' CLS or the Audi A8, the LS is a dirge. Actually, it kind of looks like a Toyota Avalon with a post-graduate degree."

"Yes, yes, a very nice robot. A gifted colleague of mine asked the perfect question: Will there ever be a Lexus owners club? Of course, the cars are splendid appliances. But will they ever be cherished automobiles like those of old-world marques BMW or Bentley? Yes, they can park themselves. But can they soar?"

See http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-hy-neil30aug30,0,5726164,full.story?coll=la-home-highway1 Unlike the rest of us, Dan Neil is a Pulitzer Prize winning automobile journalist. So what do you think of this review?

— maxxm (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 11:55:51 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I liked this website a lot more before it started receiving monies from Toyota/Lexus. Your opinion now is subjective in all BMW-Lexus issues. That makes me sad...

— vladyxa (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 12:01:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

See, article sums up a lot of people's views here.

Basically it says that Lexus is not now, not in 10 years, or even in 100 years will be part of the "good old boys club" of luxury makers.

Denying the merits of something just because of it being a newer brand is a very illogical mindset to have.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 12:22:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

BMWexpert what is ur fascination with me... Jump off deez Nutz

— KinGofNY (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 12:46:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

If history is such a big part of the German automakers, then why don't they learn from it?
---------------------------------------

Two words: they are.



Why isn't a new 3 series twice as fast as a Lexus IS? Why is the new LS the first to offer an 8 speed transmission? Why did Tesla (an American company) develop an electric performance car before BMW?
--------------------------------------------

The 3-Series is fast enough. Just because the IS350 is quicker to 60 doesn't mean anything really. BMW isn't about speed as much as it is about BALANCE. Heck, there are many Mercedes' out there quicker than some BMW's, but the BMW product tends to be the best balanced when it comes to dynamics. The IS is fast, but it isn't as well balanced in the sports department like the 3-Series.

BMW has "reacted" with the 335i, but you should know since you have the "answer" for everything that car companies stick to their philosophy for the most part. If the 3-Series handles like it handles because the engine weighs about right etc., then leave it. BMW is about handling and sport, no necessarily the fastest 0-60 time. Most purist drivers will enjoy the dynamic driving, not the 0-60 times.


And most importantly, since Mercedes has been doing it longer than anyone else, why don't they build the most reliable cars in the world? Why have they been eclipsed by Lexus every year?
------------------------------------------

MB took a big hit when that idiot Schrempp came to power who was an accounting man in terms of thought. He was all about cost-cutting and sadly cut costs in the R&D departments. This affected the testing times equipment like electronics etc. I'd say quality control was still pretty good, but how can you control quality in electrical devices? That's the job of the R&D center. And they test it using TIME. Schrempp's policy slashed those R&D times and hence, the electric issues.

That said, European surveys show MB going back up FYI.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 3:34:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Matt, I never claimed to be making a statement of fact (maybe I should have been clearer on that, I can cop to my errors). My opinion based on my ridiculously low observation is obvioulsy nonsense. That was my point. Its the German car nuts who are trying to pose their opinions as facts. If you want to argue opinions fine. Mine is better than yours na na na na na na. That's what it boils down to.

BMWExpert if may post didnt make sense, I suggest you go back to school to learn to read, and leanr to argue without lying while at it.

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 3:44:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

BMW530i-
Germans are learning from their mistakes all right, but very slowly. I don't have time to wait around for them to perfect their cars like Lexus has. They've had well over 100 years to perfect their cars and they are still going at it. Lexus has been here for almost 18 years and their cars are perfect. In the long run, people want Lexus because they aren't trying to figure out how to make their cars better, they already are better.

— lexusis350 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 5:41:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

The issues of the Number of transmission gears..The point of the 7 speed trans from Merc was to make a smoother, more fuel efficient transmission to be used throughout the brand. Thus it will help them in fuel consumption and their brand's image for top ride quality.

the 7 speed was already considered too overwhelming to use 7 gears.

and why did lexus use 8speed to add on another gear? To crown themseleves a title of "the first automaker to use 8 speed blah blah blah" ther isn't much point to use 8.

eventually all cars will have 15 like those freightliners..PLEASE is not the amount of gears that counts, is the purpose that counts. I see lexus as unpurposeful but to add things on to strengthen their image for ppl who just wants more and tries to be exclusive. I mean think of a bicycle, how many times have u used ALL OF THOSE 21 SPEEDS etc?

For most, u will prolly use 3 variation of speeds. Up hill, crusing, accelerating.

— wwww (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 6:40:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

So Merc is to be celebrated for doing a seven speed, but Lexus is supposed to frowned upon for doing eight?

That makes the kind of sense that doesn't.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 7:06:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Who ever said the IS350 was slower to 60??? The 335i was tested as 0-60 in 4.9 and a 1.4 mile in 13.6 near identical numbers to the E46 M3 (only a lower trap speed)

— GermanNut (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 7:10:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Word to all of our mothers!

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 7:17:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Will, if I press the comment button 100 times, I will make 100 comments.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 9:00:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Lexusis350,


No offense, but you just shot yourself in the foot with your STUPID post. Let me tell you why...

I don't have time to wait around for them to perfect their cars like Lexus has. They've had well over 100 years to perfect their cars and they are still going at it. Lexus has been here for almost 18 years and their cars are perfect.
-------------------------------------------------

Let's see. The Germans invent the modern car in the late 19th century. So far, there isn't much to install and offer in these cars. It first has to be INVENTED and then perfected. These things take time. You think someone in 1935 actually thinks up an airbag or ESP? The priorities were different back then, studies on safety were in their infancy or non-existant.

Lexus has had an EASY start. The financial backing of Toyota for one, and the fact that Lexus simply copied Mercedes for the most part with their first LS. They took apart a W140 S-Class and studied it and made it better. The result was the LS400. Yeah, Lexus really "perfected the car in 18 years". That's because they took what the Germans (for the most part) invented and added their own perfections to the design.

If Lexus had invented the car back in 1886, it would have taken them just as much time as it took the Germans. Stop the crap comments, seriously. Your bias is incredible.

Lexus cars aren't perfect. No car in the world is perfect. Personally, I find all Lexus' except for the GS and new LS to be boring, dull, sleeping pill-like etc.



In the long run, people want Lexus because they aren't trying to figure out how to make their cars better, they already are better.
-----------------------------------------

Jesus Christ, what are you smoking? People want different cars for a number of reasons.

There are people who will never buy a Lexus because they perceive it to be a rebadged Toyota, no image etc. etc. etc.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 9:22:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

So Merc is to be celebrated for doing a seven speed, but Lexus is supposed to frowned upon for doing eight?
----------------------------------------------

No. The ads from both firms made a big deal about something which really wasn't a big deal. Adding another gear to a transmission really isn't "innovation" at all. It's an "improvement".

Yeah, people thought the 7-speed Benz tranny was excessive, and they're thinking the same thing about the Lexus 8-spd.

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 9:25:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Another 'war thread' created by a Lexus LoonieTOON. Lexus is not superior compared to any German car maker. Lexus is not rich in history like the Germans are. Like BMW530i stated, Germans had years and years to try to perfect what they made. Lexus simply stole, copied, altered, whichever you want to call it.

Did your daddy just buy you a new IS350 and now you think the car's the &*#@ ? Or did you go read a few online reviews on the Lexus because you like the car and with some positive reviews you think it's going to be superior to the Germans? You think like a teenager. Perhaps you are one. I feel bad for you.

You trapped yourself in a deep hole. You know how many German fans are on this site? They will squash you with facts, numbers, and opinions!.

HOWEVER!, dont get me wrong, the new GS and LS are beautiful, but if you say they are superior to the A6, 5series, E-class, A8, 7series, S-class, then you are in big trouble.

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 9:44:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Lexus is here just make money$$$$, NO Freaking Shit....Is not MB,Audi and BMW doing the same thing. MB has vechicle that sell well over 100k, so is Audi and BMW. And at the same you can get similar car for lesser price and still have similar performance and same or better quality.

You think MB, Audi and BMW just want to make cars and sell it just for Fun not the Money.

It has alway and will always be about making money $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$without the money$$$$$$4 the manufactured cannot go on.

When MB, Audi and BMW spend more time perfecting their vechicle quality than we talk. Even a freaking Toyota has better realiability than those brand I have mention.

— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 9:52:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Why discount the ability of Lexus because they took a S Class and made it better? Why didn't Mercedes themselves do it?

Let's say you are right. The German auto makers are the only innovators and Lexus merely improves upon their work. Wouldn't you rather have a better version if you had a choice?

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 9:58:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Answer: It's not about choice it's about who had what first; who copied who. Let say Lexus did improve on what Mercedes couldn't do. It doesn't mean they are 'superior' to MB. It means they are capable of taking a design from another company and making it better.

I'm not saying Lexus is bad I actually wouldn't mind owning an IS, GS, or the new LS so don't get me wrong. But as for it's rich history, image, name, Lexus is cutting short in that category. It doesn't mean they won't be capable in years to come but for now, the German's have more recognition.

Lexus: You might want to keep the swearing to a minimal. You like the word "Freaking" a lot don't you? lol.

Lexus should quit jumping out of their own league with trying to make an Ultra-saloon like a Maybach with the new LS and concentrate on their own market.

Sometimes it's not about getting a similar car for a lower price. People who purchase cars in that price range don't worry about bang for buck as much as consumers in the entry-level luxury segment. People who could afford a 100K car could probably afford 140K car.

Sometimes it's not even about the money or 'value'. People go back to a particular brand because they are used to owning them and they receive great service. In this case, their payroll does not reflect on what vehicle they own.




ANSWER: IF YOU HAD THE MONEY TO OWN AN IS350 BUT THE QUALITY ON AN ECHO IS 10X BETTER, WOULD YOU GO GET AN ECHO?

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 11:03:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I would choose the IS in a heartbeat.

That said, I wouldn't deny the merits of the Echo as people deny Lexus its due. I wouldn't knock the Echo for not being the fastest car ever. I wouldn't deride it for being the 1,000th car to use an airbag. And if the Echo came with 12 speeds compared to the six in my IS, so be it.

This message thread, in all of its hundred plus posts, is people debating whether or not Lexus is a valid choice amoung luxury cars. Whether you would choose it for yourself or not really doesn't matter. I believe the new LS is worthy enough to be a true competitor to the Germans.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 8/30/2006 11:21:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

BMW530i-
"Lexus has had an EASY start". Yes they did. And because of this EASY start, they knew what they had to do to become the biggest rival of Mercedes. Because of their EASY start, they became better than Mercedes. Maybe, if Mercedes had an EASY start, they would be better cars, but the point is, they aren't, and never will be, the quality of a Lexus.

— lexusis350 (View Profile)

Posted on 8/31/2006 12:02:14 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Where do these Lexus Idiots come from anyway? These guys are SO FAR lost.

Pity...

— jackpuls (View Profile)

Posted on 8/31/2006 11:04:44 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Lexus IS350,

"Lexus has had an EASY start". Yes they did. And because of this EASY start, they knew what they had to do to become the biggest rival of Mercedes. Because of their EASY start, they became better than Mercedes. Maybe, if Mercedes had an EASY start, they would be better cars, but the point is, they aren't, and never will be, the quality of a Lexus.
--------------------------------------

Sorry, but in no way is Lexus BETTER than Mercedes-Benz. Lexus is superior, but not BETTER.

And you are saying that Mercedes will "never" reach Lexus quality? If you are such a Toyota fan, you would know that in the 1950s, Toyota had such poor quality products, that they almost went bankrupt. Guess what saved Toyota? The KOREAN WAR. The US government awarded some manufacturing contracts to Toyota to build trucks for them etc. Along the line, Toyota finally improved their quality.

MB and other brands can do the same. In fact, MB has been building quality cars since the beginnings to 1994. The mid 1990s were the dark years at MB. Recently thought, their newer cars have been praised for returning to the feeling of solidity and quality. Check out the newer MB's and I don't think you can argue.

I recently drove an E280 CDI in Europe (facelifted model). I didn't find anything wrong with the car. The interior quality is very good for one, and the car feels solid.

Incidentally, I am surprised no one has mentioned how small the GS is on the inside. I sat in one in a Lexus dealer and I found the transmission tunnel to take up a little too much leg and thigh space. Pitty since I like the Lexus GS. The IS too is pretty small upfront. I found the 3-series, A4 and C-Class to be more spacious upfront.

And before you attack me, me criticizing interior space of some Lexus' models has nothing to do with being a "Lexus hater"...

— BMW530i (View Profile)

Posted on 8/31/2006 1:10:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

BMW530i:
Quit wasting your time. Can't you see you are arguing with a bunch of women who know nothing about cars.

— gwetherall (View Profile)

Posted on 9/1/2006 12:25:11 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

530i,
I agree about Toyota/Honda's shoddy quality at the start. They changed, and it has to do with the Japanese mentality.

On the other hand, Germans suffer from Unions, same as N.America. People who want more money, for the least possible amount of work.

The 2nd basic point is that when money becomes tighter, do you think they'll still be able to continue to spend more on R&D? Then they'll start falling behind (partially because they think prestige can replace quality and delivering a good product).

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/1/2006 10:22:56 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

530i,
BMW's racing history isn't enough for them to beat Toyota in F1. That's reality. If BMW doesn't learn to live in the present and think about the future, then they too will become history.

Thinking you're "sporty" is different from proving it.

Chewy,
No, Toyota engines share the same trait of being able to beat BMW's, F1 or reality.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 9/1/2006 10:29:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1