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Tags: Prestige, luxury market, international

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Why Lexus shouldn't be regarded prestigious
In a May 2006 survey, Porsche was awarded first place as the most prestigious luxury automobile brand by Luxury Institute, New York; it questioned more than 500 US households with a gross annual income of at least $200,000 and a net worth of at least $750,000

Mercedes was awarded second place, and Toyota's Lexus division, third. There are a number of problems with this, and I will attempt to explain why Lexus doesn't belong on this list.

The first problem with this survey is that it did not give an adequate definition of prestige. Is it based on single factors such as technological innovation, engines, heritage, performance brands, awards, average transaction prices, owner demographics, or parent company/acquisitions, or is it a culmination of all of these things?

Lexus doesn't belong on this list for a number of reasons. Let's break it down:

1. Technological innovation: The most marketed event in the brand's history was the "invention" of the hybrid system. This was hardly an innovation--in fact, it was just the opposite. Audi has been at the forefront of hybrid testing and research since the late 1980's, releasing their first prototype in 1988. Audi was also the first premium brand to bring to market a hybrid vehicle, the DUO, in 1997. Why is Lexus credited with inventing hybrid when all they did was copy existing technology?

Look closer, and you'll find a number of other technologies on Lexus cars is a copy of what you see on the competition first, and often is brought decades after it was originally created.

2. Engines: How many of Lexus engines have made Ward's 10 Best--regarded as the benchmark in engine testing and ratings? Three, including the 3.5L V6. Audi, on the other hand, has been named on that list a total of nine times, representing five engines. BMW has been named seventeen times, representing six engines. Where is a Lexus V12 engine? What do they have to show in the form of diesel technology and development? Clearly, the engines Lexus produces are inferior to these two less "prestigious" brands.

3. Heritage: What heritage? Born in 1989, and according to Lexus designers and engineers, ADMITTEDLY a copy of Mercedes.

4. Performance brands: In Europe, and across the world, performance brands are what separate near luxury from true luxury brands, and explains Audi S, BMW M, and Mercedes AMG cars. Huge amounts of money are spent on the development, engineering, and testing of such vehicles--not to mention the costs associated with producing them. Where is Lexus' performance brand?

5. Awards: The only awards associated with Lexus are long-term quality related. Never mind engineering, driveability, performance, drive trains, interior awards, and international recognition. As was pointed out in a previous article, the difference between Lexus vehicles and the worst vehicles under JD Power & Associates 3 year quality ranking was just THREE problems. Then, there's the issue of how you even define what a PROBLEM is--is it bad cupholders, a badly placed doorhandle, or something mechanical? This study doesn't do a good enough job of differentiating between the two.

Bottom line, Lexus so-called "quality" is incredibly over rated.

6. Average transaction prices: Audi's and BMW's average transaction prices (read, more available higher priced models) trumps the Lexus average significantly. This is because while the most expensive Lexus model is a mere $72k, Audi's most expensive model is the $118k A8 W12 and BMW's most expensive model is the $119k 760Li. Not to mention numerous S and M performance vehicles.

7. Owner demographics: Both BMW and Audi boast higher percentages of college graduates with higher income than your typical Lexus buyer.

8. Parent company/acquisitions: Lexus is a subsidiary of Toyota Motor. Audi's branch under VW includes Lamborghini and VW's branch includes Bentley and Bugatti. In plain English this means that the collaboration of VW/Audi with these extremely high end makes will only mean superior engineering and technology. BMW owns Rolls-Royce and Isetta. What does Lexus have in the form of this?

Audi and BMW demonstrate clear advantages over Lexus in all of the above points, including being well respected and widely sought after in international markets. To me, these points are what make prestige vehicles, prestige vehicles, not an elaborate marketing campaign, such as the one put on by Lexus.

Go anywhere around the world, and ask what the three most prestigious mainstream luxury brands are and you'll hear: Mercedes, BMW, and Audi (if mainstream wasn't part of the question, Porsche would be included).

In any case, it shows the mind blowing ignorance of your typical American consumer, and also explains why Lexus will never gain the amount of respect internationally, that it has in the US.





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AUDIMAN4AUDIMAN4 - 8/11/2006 10:20:45 PM
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Also, a large number of Lexus owners don't know they're driving a Toyota. If they knew, would Lexus be as successful?

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guzzialfaboyguzzialfaboy - 4/23/2008 11:17:04 AM
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I've owned two Audi's. A 72 100LS. Worse car of the more than 60 I've owned and a 2004 Allroad that I sold after two years of bad brakes, ac control unit being replaced and body hardware falling off occasionally. I love how Audi's look and drive, but the 2002 Lexus LS400 I bought after the Allroad was a much superior and flawless car. Was it as much fun to drive? No, but was it a better designed and built vehicle? Sorry, but yes it was and the service compared to the Audi dealer was no contest. But, if one loves a car you can overlook quite a bit. I'd rather have an Alfa Romeo than any of them so there you go.


LexusLexus - 8/11/2006 11:19:28 PM
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Audiman4, where is Audi how come it "Not on the list", maybe because people finally realize that Lexus is a better choice for Lexury brand. As far as Lexury and interior design wise Lexus is the Leader in it class. You know what Audiman4 went Audi make the list then we talk ok. Do some research and find out what Lexus mean before started making Idiot common. I just read on one of article on this website where they say the Lexus GS out sold the Audi A6.

Lexus



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LexusLexus - 8/11/2006 11:46:30 PM
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Very funny I thought BMW is the best-selling luxury sedan in the world. efoxS4 do you have proof to what you have says?

Lexus


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crackityjonescrackityjones - 8/11/2006 11:56:38 PM
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The true snob here is you, the author of this piece.

I love and prefer German cars myself, and agree with many of your other points, but when you bash people who disagree with your worldview, you cross the line.

This isn't an "American consumer" issue. This isn't an ignorance issue. These people like Lexus because Lexus does many things very well. Deal with reality, bro.

You label people ignorant if they come back with an answer on a survey you don't personally like?

Please don't give German cars a (further) bad name with the superiority trip.


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NitekKetinNitekKetin - 8/12/2006 12:07:58 AM
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"Performance brands: In Europe, and across the world, performance brands are what separate near luxury from true luxury brands, and explains Audi S, BMW M, and Mercedes AMG cars. Huge amounts of money are spent on the development, engineering, and testing of such vehicles--not to mention the costs associated with producing them. Where is Lexus' performance brand?"

So, Rolls Royce, Maybach, Bentley, Daimler and Jaguar are 'near luxury' brands?


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mstangpny07mstangpny07 - 8/12/2006 12:12:01 AMView My AgentSpace
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Sorry efoxs4, the A6 lost it's crown. I found this on a DaimlerChrysler website:
“The new S-Class has been met with great response worldwide, and our flagship vehicle claimed its position as the world’s best-selling luxury sedan immediately following its market launch in September 2005,”



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racer_65racer_65 - 8/12/2006 1:09:22 AM
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I agree totally that Lexus is no prestigious brand; however, I have the exact same feeling about Audi. Audi is about at the same second tier prestige level as Lexus. If you go to China, you will find that Audis are everywhere, just as ubiquitous as VWs.

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LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 8/12/2006 1:33:46 AM
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this is total bull

i can think of a lot of "inventions" that lexus/toyota as produced...

how bout marketing the back up camera first...now all luxury cars are starting to have it

how bout the self parking car in the new LS...now BMW is copying that as well

well just two for now :p but the point is...who's to say who copies who, as long as the person who does it the best wins...mainly lexus

im sorry i hate audi interiors...the layout is horrible, and its ugly as well. I must prefer lexus's interiors...the people who hate lexus...just be mad that the japanese are beginning to change the way people make cars, its their job!


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LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 8/12/2006 1:38:35 AM
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oh and if audi has been making these so called hybrids...where are they now? how come they arent trying to save the environment with some hybrids. Even if they did invent them first...who put them in mass production. german car fans are just scared that even though lexus has had a little more than 15 years of expeience, they are all considered equal.

and wheres the performance side of toyota/lexus? you will see it next year with the IS500. Oh and isnt the performance side of lexus the hybrid section? the GS450h outruns the M5. how about that?


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LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 8/12/2006 1:42:06 AM
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oops i didnt mean M5, i meant the 5 series v8 version, lol...im an ass

how come you can edit these posts?


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AUDIMAN4AUDIMAN4 - 8/12/2006 1:58:20 AM
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First of all, AUDI is recognized as the leader in interior quality of materials. A number of Audi's have gained international awards for top quality interior fit, finish, and materials.

Second, anyone who questions Audi's status as a TIER I company is clearly disillutioned. A recent German survey that included several thousand submissions concluded that Audi was not only more desireable than BMW and MB, but also that owners were most likely to recommend the brand. Go to UK, or Japan, and now even Germany, and Audi is as highly respected as BMW or MB.


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mstangpny07mstangpny07 - 8/12/2006 2:00:50 AMView My AgentSpace
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5 Series V8 BMW would be called 550i.

GS450h 0-60@5.2 sec 550i 0-60@5.4 just so you know



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AUDIMAN4AUDIMAN4 - 8/12/2006 2:05:31 AM
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LexusKindaGuy:

Hate to break it to you bro, but Infiniti was the first to bring the backup camera to the market with the Q45, introduced in late 2001.

As stated in the article, self-parking is not a Lexus invention. That technology was created and tested by VW in 1991 and brought to market first with the new S-class.

As for hybrids, Audi/VW along with a host of other German makes, chose to focus primarily on DIESELS, as they are better suited for the European market. Hybrids, especially big-engined Lexus hybrids, are completely wrong for the European market and will continue to fail.

NiteKketin: Rolls Royce, Maybach, Bentley are owned by BMW, Mercedes, and Audi/VW respectively. They are ultra luxury brands. As for Jaguar, it has lost much of it's global prestige, although it is still more highly rated than Lexus.


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LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 8/12/2006 2:08:28 AM
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lol im sorry but the self parking thing has not been available in any S class, not even the newest one.

also, with your little survey...people you dont even know; how about this example. my sister, not a car nut...asked me yesterday...is lexus a luxury brand, when i answered yes, she said, oh i thought i was near hte honda type. At least everyone knows a lexus is what a lexus really is


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LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 8/12/2006 2:09:15 AM
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btw jaguar is under water, nobody wants to buy those unreliable (FORD) cars anymore. Its the same concept with toyota and lexus. Why buy aston martins...or jaguars...arent they just FORDS?

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AUDIMAN4AUDIMAN4 - 8/12/2006 2:22:15 AM
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In Europe and around the world, the Jaguar name has more cachet than Lexus, a knockoff that no one hardly knows or cares about. Just look at Lexus' pathetic international sales.

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kart1kart1 - 8/12/2006 2:48:44 AM
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Come on guys if Lexus sucks so bad then why do you guys always have to prove it to yourself? This is really just repeating over and over again.

Also why does everyone here really does ignore the American market? I mean there are 17 million cars sold here - the largest market in the world. I mean people ignore America like we are an island in the middle of the Pacific or something.


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AUDIMAN4AUDIMAN4 - 8/12/2006 3:03:23 AM
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America is clearly a very important and influential market, which often makes up the majority of many manufacturers' sales.

However, it is not the end all. Everyone who states that Lexus is a brand on par with BMW and MB, and above Audi in prestige, fail to realize that this is not the case internationally.

The fact is, Lexus is not well known, and not well respected outside of the US. Just face the facts.


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LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 8/12/2006 3:11:54 AM
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okay we are not disagreeing with you...clearly...if people out there feel the same opinions you do, then lexus is not a internationally based brand. But, you have to admit, if they can win the americans hards in 17 years, they can win the europeans in due time. merdedes/audi has had much more time to build their name. Within this short time, lexus is doing all they can. Thats why the new LS is called the "Global Flagship Sedan"...GLOBAL- key word

jtgct, if they are mfr estimats...and they are...dont you think they would be trying to get those 0-60 times lower. Why would BMW put down 5.4 if it really could get 5.0 secs. Why would it be downgrading its own car. Besides, though european mags are probably biased on some level. And it might have been bad conidtions for a hybrid drivetrain


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350zman350zman - 8/12/2006 3:25:06 AM
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"Performance brands: In Europe, and across the world, performance brands are what separate near luxury from true luxury brands, and explains Audi S, BMW M, and Mercedes AMG cars


first, AMG is a tuner like dinan not a performance "brand" Per se. Second lexus IS the M series or the s series. It is the "Toyota M"

Just look at Lexus' pathetic international sales.

You can't have it both ways! you can't say it sucks because its just a Toyota with options then act like toyota doesn't exist. Using that logic would be like saying Don't buy a BMW because they only sell a few M3's

As for quality I was previosly forced to drive an audi for a company car. I almost quit just to not have to drive that torque steering, pile of german sausage anymore. But it had a nice leather seat. I no longer have to drive it because one of my co-workers was almost killed in it when the ABS, airbags, DSC and nearly every single electical system went out at a calm 45-50 mph. but it had nice seats. A great place to die.



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00JT00JT - 8/12/2006 4:30:49 AM
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To All Lexus Fans:

Please don't waste your time on this thread. It's full of Lexus haters.

If they think Lexus was that bad or shouldn't be regaurded as prestigeous then whats with all the fuss? Deep down inside they KNOW Lexus is a force to be reckoned with.

If not, then why isn't this thread about why Hyundai shouldn't be reguarded as prestigeous, since we all obviously know that Hyundai is not there yet.


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BMW530iBMW530i - 8/12/2006 8:01:43 AM
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Will,

AudimanA4, you are always concerned with international sales. From that viewpoint, okay fine. But what about the American market? Why is everyone on this site so quick to disregard one of the largest market segments in the industry? Oh wait...Let me guess...
----------------------------------------

Currently, the American car market is the biggest in the world and the most powerful when it comes to buying power.

BUT,

Look at China. This market is awakening. There are many wealthy Chinese emerging: and what do they look at when it comes to practical luxury? Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Jaguar. Look at emerging markets in Eastern Europe and Asia, they feel the same way. I'm sorry, but Lexus simply has ZERO IMAGE in those markets. None at all.

Success in America is one thing, but globally, Lexus simply isn't doing anything right. They are offering "American luxury" in Europe or Japan, which people DON'T WANT. People there are forced to drive cars with smaller engines etc. because of government laws on engine capacity taxes etc. Lexus is ignoring this. I believe their philosophy is that "one can only be a luxury brand if one offers powerful engines". This belief is totally wrong. In Europe or Japan, there is no shame in driving a 2.0 4-cylinder luxury car. None.

This is not a critique, just a friendly little reminder. ;)


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BMW530iBMW530i - 8/12/2006 8:04:18 AM
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Lexuskindofguy12,

Thats why the new LS is called the "Global Flagship Sedan"...GLOBAL- key word
------------------------------------------

Lexus may think it'll be a global car, but it cannot be a global car if it doesn't come with more engine options.

Like I said, they've got engine capacity taxes in Europe and many Asian countries. Smaller engines give buyers a tax break. They need to offer a small V6, perhaps displacing 2.5-2.8 liters for Europe and Asia. Then we can talk "Global".

A 4.6-l V8 won't do. Rich people in other places of the world have different expectations.


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CliffCliff - 8/12/2006 9:49:55 AM
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What a horrible post.

I don't think this post is up to the quality of this website. Completely biased and not rational.

Consider the points:

1. This point on technological innovation only discusses hybrid technology and doesn't address other innovations that Lexus has copied or that other automakers have copied. All in all you'd be hard pressed to come up with technologies that Porsche has innovated in the last 10 years. Porsche's don't have a lot of innovation. I don't see you criticizing them.

2. Engines. Luxury isn't about engines. You are biased toward sport, but in America where the highest speed limit is 80 mph. We have little use for v12 engines. They are just gas guzzlers that aren't particularly useful for the vehicle.

3. Why does this matter? Just cause a company made cars in 1898 doesn't mean their cars today will be nicer. Ford made cars in 1898.

4. Once again your biased towards sport. Lexus is more about Luxury.

5. Awards. One huge award that you are missing is the dealer awards. Lexus constantly wins dealer awards and the level of service, care and the way you are treated keeps people coming back and is only rivaled by Cadillac, which has the problem of having bad cars, which no one wants.

6. Transaction Prices. One of the interesting things about Lexus vehicles is how it canibalizes it's own market share. The LS is most cross-shopped against the ES. Buyers aren't sure which one to get. That's the great thing about America. Buyers as a whole tend not to be fooled by overpriced crap and look for value.

7. Where did you get that study? Is this just for Europe or is it America?

8. They recently acquired some of these companies. Bentleys and Rolls Royces are hardly innovative vehicles. VW and BMW just put some sheet mettle around one of their less expensive models. Take away some innovative features and call it a Bentley or Rolls Royce. These cars suck and when compared to a Mercedes S600 are a waste of money. The smart money knows this.



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MercBasherMercBasher - 8/12/2006 10:46:06 AM
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Reasons why the Germans hate Lexus:

The auto industry is one of the few remaining where the Germans can be considered a world power

The German auto industry requires high prices to cover the outrageously high costs of engineering and manufacture in Germany

High prices can only be maintained if the general public believes in the superiority of the product, and/or places a high value on the associated "prestige".

Anything which creates competition, or any research that challenges the notion of superiority must be ridiculed, dismissed or exterminated.

This is why you see German (especially Audi) nutcases going to so much effort to challenge (a.) Lexus because of its better value / better ownership experience as a luxury brand, and (b.) surveys such as JD Powers and others which confirm that German engineering superiority is not what it once was.

OK, so now can we get beyond the attacks on Lexus, Infiniti and Acura?


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huu76huu76 - 8/12/2006 11:34:02 AM
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You'd better go see a doctor, you're looking a little green.

Oh wait, that's just envy. Nevermind.


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M3DoomM3Doom - 8/12/2006 12:25:02 PM
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People should stop wasting their time trying to find reasons why Lexus is not good enough, and let the fact that they are set in. Lexus is a great product better than audi i.e junk. The only good part of this whole piece is "BMW has been named seventeen times, representing six engines". Oh so sweet BMW rules...

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M3DoomM3Doom - 8/12/2006 12:34:19 PM
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Don’t put BMW owners in the same categories as loser audi owners. I worked for BMW the only company we kept our eyes on was Lexus, and not audi junk!! keep following losers …

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rakamoorakamoo - 8/12/2006 12:52:35 PM
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If you had to drive one of these cars for 20 years, which would you choose? Spending close to 100K on a benz or a bmw is stupid - the lexus is luxurious, meticulous execution, and reliable. Who gives a rat's ass about cachet and prestige?

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LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 8/12/2006 1:10:57 PM
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Okay this blog is full of contradictions

if lexus focuses on too big of engines...why is this person saying that they dont have the so called performance branch. WTF...thats a total contradiction. Lexus doesnt make too strong of engines, it doesnt make too weak. deal with it.


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kart1kart1 - 8/12/2006 1:22:42 PM
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BMW530i you are right about China and that it will be a huge market, but it isn't right now. Another thing that hurts Lexus in China is that it is a Japanese company. As past events has showed the Chinese aren't that fond of the Japanese. Now there are other reasons and time will only tell what will happen in the international market. Let us wait for atleast five or more years before we can totally say that Lexus is a complete failure.

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GermanNutGermanNut - 8/12/2006 3:03:32 PM
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I agree totally that Lexus is no prestigious brand; however, I have the exact same feeling about Audi. Audi is about at the same second tier prestige level as Lexus. If you go to China, you will find that Audis are everywhere, just as ubiquitous as VWs.


At least Audi makes cars that cost more than respective BMW or MB models such as the RS6, RS4, Q7 and the lease payments on the A8L are higher than on a 750 BMW.

Lexus is not respected because they fail to make cars that cross the $100K barrier and they also fail to make sport oriented cars such as the BMW M3 or Audi RS4.


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BMW530iBMW530i - 8/12/2006 3:29:38 PM
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Will,

If your concern is smaller engine options, then I agree with you. Lexus has the 204-hp 2.5L V6 that they can use, they also the 2.2L diesel in the IS220d. They also have their new 3.5L V6, and not to mention the hybrids...
----------------------------------------

The IS250 is still considered a car with a "big engine" in Europe. It competes with the BMW 325i and the Mercedes C280, both of which are luxury in Europe. Lexus needs an "IS200 or IS180" to compete with premium cars like the BMW 318i / 320i / 323i and Benz C180K, C200K and the C230, which is a V6 now I think. The same applies for the GS and LS, RX and SC. ;)

They also need more diesels. I've never seen more diesels in my life than when I am in Europe. They really love them over there.


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BMW530iBMW530i - 8/12/2006 3:34:05 PM
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Lexuskindofguy12,

if lexus focuses on too big of engines...why is this person saying that they dont have the so called performance branch. WTF...thats a total contradiction. Lexus doesnt make too strong of engines, it doesnt make too weak. deal with it.
----------------------------------------

First, your English is horrible.

Second, read my post. I am saying that Lexus needs weaker and smaller engines for Europe if they want to be successful. Instead, you automatically assume this is a critique or a rant about Lexus and go on to spit insults.

Power might fly in the USA, but in Europe, a 150-hp luxury car is a nice ride and more than adequately powered. Heck, Europeans drive around in 120-hp turbodiesels that can crack 145 mph.


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BMW530iBMW530i - 8/12/2006 3:35:50 PM
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Kart1,

BMW530i you are right about China and that it will be a huge market, but it isn't right now. Another thing that hurts Lexus in China is that it is a Japanese company. As past events has showed the Chinese aren't that fond of the Japanese. Now there are other reasons and time will only tell what will happen in the international market. Let us wait for atleast five or more years before we can totally say that Lexus is a complete failure.
-------------------------------------

Thanks. You have a valid point there about the Chinese and their perception of the Japanese. Let's not forget Korea as well. I've only been there once, but seeing a Japanese car in Korea is rare. A Korean friend of mine said they still feel animosity towards the Japanese.


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BMW530iBMW530i - 8/12/2006 3:43:52 PM
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24HOJ,

German did supplies the Japanese to cause these events.......WWII it was Japanese, Germans and Italy that cause the war.
---------------------------------------------------

The Germans hardly supplied the Japanese with anything. There were a few submarine runs from both nations to exchange technology and raw materials, but this was risky for the submarines because of Allied air power in the Pacific and Southern Africa etc.

And World War II probably had its roots in 1918, when the First World War ended. The way we treated Germany back then, who could blame them for wanting revenge. Germany started World War II in Europe in September of 1939. Italy didn't, although Italy was criticized in the mid 1930s for the massacres and attrocities they did in Africa (Ethiopia). Japan was already in China in the early 1930s - you could say World War II in the Pacific began at that point, way before the European war.

At any rate, the German delivered the Chinese Army with weapons and helmets in the 1930s - to use against the Japanese. Yes, you read that right. I'm a bit of a history buff myself, and this is a known fact. Also, when the Europeans colonized parts of China, the Germans were actually some of the most lenient and benevolent rulers of all the Europeans there. The Chinese have no reason to hate the Germans.

Also, I am of Jewish origins and I love modern Germany and their cars etc. Can you blame the current Germans or Japanese for the crimes of their ancestors? You can't.

I agree that the Chinese shouldn't have this anti-Japanese stigma, but they do. And we can't change it. It has to come from them.


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LexusKindaGuy12LexusKindaGuy12 - 8/12/2006 3:46:31 PM
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okay im going to ignore this "article" for a while. No use raising my blood pressure over this. Bottom line-Lexus may no seem like a prestigious brand over seas (maybe true maybe not), but it definately deserves to be.

why does it hurt the brand to make cars cheaper than BMW/merc/audi. Lexus has always been praised for having lower costs which is a good value for your money. You should like that. Whatever, as long as the americans think Lexus is prestigious, im fine, i dont think ill be bringing to car to china any time soon


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UPshiftUPshift - 8/12/2006 4:19:12 PM
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Let's hear it for diversity in the marketplace!

BTW,
Competition makes brands better. Without it, development would get stagnant. Witness GM's domination of the U.S. market for 50 years. It grew stagnant an bloated and is paying the price now.


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racer_65racer_65 - 8/12/2006 5:34:14 PM
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Which automotive in the world has any Audi on display? Did Audi built anything worthy of mentioning prior to 1990? Fact is, Audi is in the same category as Lexus. Both are new comers, and both gathered a following by making cars are sporty and yet affordable to consumers.

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racer_65racer_65 - 8/12/2006 5:35:48 PM
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Correction: I meant "Which automotive museum in the world".

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crackityjonescrackityjones - 8/12/2006 5:48:31 PM
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Audiman, I love Audi too. I agree they're great cars.

But Toyota has poured kajillions into making Lexus a luxury force. They have succeeded. No rational person can disagree with that.

Prestige means luxury in the USA. Even BMW calls itself luxury sport sedans, to get that market share.

If you want to argue 'hall of fame' merits, then go for it. Audi may be underrepresented there.

But this was a prestige survey. The people have spoken.

If your issue is, why wasn't Audi mentioned, I think the answer is: their prestige in USA is not high enough to take on the reliability headaches.

BMW and Mercedes, it's worth it to most people to take the reliability hit because you get a prestige boost for being behind the wheel of those brands.

Audi doesn't stand for enough in the US.

By the way, that's Audi's fault. Not the American people's.

Even Audi dealers say Audi/Germany is deaf to marketing here.

Be thankful you drive a stealth-car here. It's part of what makes Audi unique!


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GermanNutGermanNut - 8/12/2006 6:12:19 PM
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Racer 65 Audi is not affordable. Te A8L is $118,900.

IF you think that is affodable by everyone where are you hiding your Rolls Phantom?

Secondly, Audi is MORE expensive than a few competing BMW and Merceds models such as the RS6 (previous generation) being more expensive than the BMW M% and MB E55.

The RS4 is thousands upon thousands more than an M3 or a C55.

Too bad for Lexus that globally, their sales can't even touch Audi's.


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GermanNutGermanNut - 8/12/2006 6:13:52 PM
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The A8L 6.0 W12 is $118,900 base.

Lexus LS430 fully loaded is $72,000.


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GermanNutGermanNut - 8/12/2006 6:24:13 PM
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NOTE TO CRACKITY JONES:

TABLE 3
TOP FIVE BRANDS ASSOCIATED WITH "SUCCESS" - SUMMARY BY COUNTRY
"Which one of the listed values do you think best describes the following
car brands?"
Percent selecting "success"
Base: All Adults

Overall Great France Italy Spain Germany
for Five Britain
Countries
(n=6,717) (n=2,080) (n=1,179) (n=1,181) (n=1,079) (n=1,198)
% % % % % %
BMW 56 56 70 48 54 54
Mercedes Benz 53 53 68 42 52 49
Audi 48 49 56 38 49 45
Lexus 45 49 51 32 44 46
Alfa Romeo 34 39 41 30 34 24

TABLE 4
TOP FIVE BRANDS ASSOCIATED WITH "FINANCIAL SECURITY" - SUMMARY BY COUNTRY
"Which one of the listed values do you think best describes the following
car brands?"
Percent selecting "financial security"
Base: All Adults

Overall Great France Italy Spain Germany
for Five Britain
Countries
(n=6,717) (n=2,080) (n=1,179) (n=1,181) (n=1,079) (n=1,198)
% % % % % %
Mercedes Benz 37 39 22 50 32 40
BMW 29 32 20 42 26 25
Lexus 27 30 17 35 24 26
Audi 26 24 19 38 27 21
Saab 25 23 24 32 25 18

TABLE 4
TOP FIVE BRANDS ASSOCIATED WITH "FINANCIAL SECURITY" - SUMMARY BY COUNTRY
"Which one of the listed values do you think best describes the following
car brands?"
Percent selecting "financial security"
Base: All Adults

Overall Great France Italy Spain Germany
for Five Britain
Countries
(n=6,717) (n=2,080) (n=1,179) (n=1,181) (n=1,079) (n=1,198)
% % % % % %
Mercedes Benz 37 39 22 50 32 40
BMW 29 32 20 42 26 25
Lexus 27 30 17 35 24 26
Audi 26 24 19 38 27 21
Saab 25 23 24 32 25 18


Notice how Audi is ranked above Lexus when it comes to success?

Racer 65 a note to you:

Audi is not affordable to the regular class. It is a premium-mark and isn't afraid to charge a premium price for its products.

Audi's A4 on steroids known as the RS4 is $66K base. Funny how Audi's highest version of the base model A4 can carry a higher base price tag than Lexus' flagship sedan.

The previous generation RS6 was more expensive than a fully-loaded LS 430.

The Q7 premium is more expensive than an X5 or an ML.

Audi owns Lamborghini what does Lexus own?

Audi is part of the Volkswagen group which has ties to Porsche, Bentley and Lamborghini

Who does Lexus have ties too?

Before 1990 Audi was a luxury force until the 60 minutes nonsense.



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GermanNutGermanNut - 8/12/2006 6:47:43 PM
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Racer 65 I would like to have you know that Audi customers on average are the wealthiest and best educated out of any of the premium luxury marks inlcuding BMW, Lexus and Mercedes-Benz.

Racer 65 also Audis line the streets of some of the wealthiest suburbs and cities across America.

I won't think of Lexus as being anything other than a Toyota until they increase the price of their flagship luxury sedan known as the LS 430 to being higher than Audi's most potent version of it's base A4 model, the RS4.

Secondly, until Lexus creates a car that costs more $100K I won't consider it prestigious.

Mercedes-Benz has many cars upwards of $100K and BMW has the 760Li.

Audi already has the A8L 6.0 W12 and the upcoming R8 with V10 will also give Audi yet another car with a cost of over $100K.

The 2007 Audi S8 will be hovering around the 95K - +100K mark depending on options.



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LexusLexus - 8/12/2006 8:00:16 PM
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Just wait entil the new Lexus IS500 with 450+ hp come out and it going to smoke the M3, Audi RS4 and C-class AMG. You German auto fans say it not going to happen. Yeah, right, the current IS350 beat the 330i, Audi A4, and the MB c-class from 0-60 time. And now BMW come out with twinturbo 335i to catch up with the IS350. The IS500 are going to gave M3, RS4 and c-class AMG the run for it money for sure. Oh, I forgot mention the Lexus LF-A currently being tested in German before it final production. Anyway that car was created compete in high segement anyway, with who? oh..with Ferrari, that right. As far a Toyota they are coming with their new Supra with 480+ hp, it going to Smoke the M3, Porsche 911, RS4 and MB c-class AMG for sure. And other Japanes brand are bring out their supercars too. Let wait and find out, only time will tell..

Don't get me wrong I love are type of cars but insulting the quality of Lexus is just Wrong.. Don't hate, one should respect and admire what Lexus has accomplished in such short amount of time, thank to it mother company Toyota.


Lexus


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LexusLexus - 8/12/2006 8:02:38 PM
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Germannut, the 2008 Lexus LS base will start at over 100K, and it come with 440 horse power. It has 8 speed and triple zeon headlight.


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RupertRupert - 8/12/2006 8:21:20 PMView My AgentSpace
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hyrbids and stuff are a nice idea, but in the reak world, they don't work. lexus needs lower trim levels and smaller engines.
where is the is 200, gs250, ls 300 or rx diesel? diesel way outsells petrol in the suv market (most markets actually), and keeps its value better.

95k for an s8?
bargain.


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AUDIMAN4AUDIMAN4 - 8/12/2006 8:25:47 PM
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The 2008 LS will NOT start over 100k, it will start similarly to the one that's out now in the mid 60's.

As for Audi, anyone who doubts the vast amount of technology this company has been responsible is clearly a fool.

The 5000, one of the companies' best all-time sellers until the controversy, was a design inspiration for every car after it, and this is still evident today.

Torsen AWD, which no one else has, hybrid and diesel technology, and a host of other things.

Audi has consistently been responsible for more technology than Lexus. Audi leads, Lexus follows.


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GermanNutGermanNut - 8/12/2006 8:32:48 PM
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Lexus, you are most certainly talking about the LS460. There is no way in hell that Lexus would start their LS series at over $100K.

You do realize that $100K is at least $15K more than a starting Mercedes-Benz S550, $25K more than a 750Li and $25K over an A8L 4.2

Lexus would NEVER start the LS at +100K. Yes, the LS460 will be over $100K easily, but that is because it is the range-topping LS.

The Audi S8 is a BARGAIN. $95K for a luxury sedan that can do 0-60 in 4.8-5 flat. It comes with tbe best sound system on the market as it won Ward's Interior Award for Best Sound System with the Bang & Olufsen masterpiece with tweeters that come OUT of the dash and the rear deck above the rear headrests. We can NEVER forget Audi interiors as the S8 is another brilliant effort and the sport aspect is not forgettn with LOADS of carbon-fiber trim EVERYWHERE.

Oh yeah I forgot to mention, it also outhandles a Benz S600.


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huu76huu76 - 8/12/2006 8:53:38 PM
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530i,
It all depends where you are. They may hate Toyota, but lots of Asian countries love Honda. Last time I checked, Honda was still Japanese.

With the Coreans, it's a weird split. With Japan, the youth probably are just jealous while the seniors hate'em. With the United States, the youth hate'em, but the seniors love'em. I guess it just depends how far back your memory goes. Some remember who tried to kill them, and who rebuilt their country.


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huu76huu76 - 8/12/2006 8:56:09 PM
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Also, the German/Japanese alliance was one of convenience. The Germans wanted the U.S. off their ass, and the Japanese knew they had to fight eventually, so both figured might as well drag the U.S. into a two front war.

Nothing to do with this forum, but history is still interesting.


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kart1kart1 - 8/12/2006 9:28:57 PM
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Hey guys I really wasn't talking about WWII as much as the events that happened in the past 5 years or so. Remember when Chinese students attackted the Japanese embassy and asked to boycott Japanese goods. Here is an Washington Post report on it: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A40503-2005Apr9.html.

So you see the hostilities are still fresh. This won't help any Japanese company. I mean why is GM king of China when Japan is so close to China, and also their cars are better. So China isn't a fair example, when concerned with Japanese companies. Just compare Lexus in other markets.


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LexusLexus - 8/12/2006 9:37:04 PM
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Opp!..correction it the Lexus LS600h L is the one I'm talking about. Rumor has it base price 100K+ for that top of the line model.

Lexus


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UPshiftUPshift - 8/12/2006 10:08:12 PM
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To those who doubt Audi's achievements prior to 1990:

Do World Rally Championships ring a bell? Audi Quattro, anyone (the car, not the system)?

Numerous speed records set in the '30s by the Auto Union silver bullets? No one could touch them or their Mercedes rivals. Does the name Nuvolari ring a bell? Hans Stuck?

To those who doubt Lexus' achievements before 1990:

OK well, there is none. But Toyota built a quality company from nothing and made its marketshare in a span of 16 years. An amazing accomplishment by any corporation, not to mention a premium brand.

Also, Toyota and Lexus have a string of race successes to draw from that other manufacturers would be envious of.

So really, it all comes to personal preference, nothing more. It's like telling someone whose favorite color is blue that "blue sucks and red is better." No amount of arguement is going to change their mind.


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00JT00JT - 8/12/2006 10:35:55 PM
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BMW530i,

"The IS250 is still considered a car with a "big engine" in Europe. It competes with the BMW 325i and the Mercedes C280, both of which are luxury in Europe. Lexus needs an "IS200 or IS180" to compete with premium cars like the BMW 318i / 320i / 323i and Benz C180K, C200K and the C230, which is a V6 now I think. The same applies for the GS and LS, RX and SC. ;)"

I see your point, however BMW and Mercedes try to reach out to all market segments in Europe ie people of various income, ages, sex, social status. Which is why they offer lower-end vehicles. They are the Toyota and Honda of Europe. Whereas in the North American market they identify themselves as purely a luxury automobile. Mercedes and BMW focus on people with high income in the US. See my point? Don't know if that sounded confusing or not.

Lexus doesn't need that. If people in Europe wanted a lower end Lexus with cloth and smaller engines, they can buy a Toyota. Lexus is meant to be Toyota's luxury marque so I doubt they will ever offer cloth seats and hubcaps on any of their cars. However I don't think it would be a bad idea for them to offer smaller engines. The next step they would go is most likely either the 4 cylinder engine from the Camry or the 1.8 liter engine from the Corolla XRS.

If Lexus went that route, we would have more people bashing Lexus on how much they were a copy of Toyota. I suppose no matter what Lexus does, there will be people that always look down upon them (not you specifically). What a shame.


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AUDIMAN4AUDIMAN4 - 8/12/2006 10:40:13 PM
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Upshift:

While I do agree with you on preference, cold hard facts cannot be disputed either. As I demonstrated in the above points, Lexus still is behind Audi and BMW in a number of areas that to me would warrant prestige.

Prestige is more than just who can come up with the best advertising, prestige is something concrete, and Audi and BMW still are ahead.


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LexusLexus - 8/12/2006 11:02:33 PM
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AudiMan4,don't worry bro! Lexus is on it way of surpassing Audi, MB and BMW. It won't belong before Lexus will be the Leader presige segement. Sooner or later Audi will soon become obsolete just like that old timer Jaguar. The only thing that is keeping Audi alive right now is there what A4, and RS4. Just wait see bro! As far as ranking prestige in the three German brand only, #1 BMW #2 MB and last the old timer Audi #3. Hey..Audi still make great car but it not my cup of tea.

Lexus


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GermanNutGermanNut - 8/13/2006 12:33:43 AM
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Simply put if Lexus is to ever take over any spot they need MORE models.

Audi is on the way with the R8, A5, Q5 and A7 all coming out within the next 2 years.

As we know Audi offers S or RS models of all their variants from the A3/S3, A4/S4/RS4, A6/S6/RS6 and A8/S8 so you can BE SURE that Audi will launch at least

an S5, S7, SQ7 and potentially a high performance RS line which would be comprised of the RS5, RS7 and RSQ7.

The R8 is an exotic sports car so no need for S or RS treatment obviously. It can do 0-60 in the 3.8 - 4.2 second range.

We know what the RS4 can do and if Audi manages to launch an RS5, RS6, RS7 and RSQ7 you can only imagine what this will cause BMW and Mercedes to do.


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F12TwinTurboF12TwinTurbo - 8/13/2006 1:24:14 AM
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hahaha....LEXUS....hahaha

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LexusLexus - 8/13/2006 3:14:41 AM
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The Lexus LF-A which is out of Audi league and will compete with Ferrari when come out of production. Lexus IS 500 and Toyota Supra 450 with 480+ horse power. Audi be afraid be very afraid because when this arrived you will be obsolete. Remember Jaguar yeah...Audi will sooner meet the same faith. People are getting tire of Audi and that why they buy the GS over the A6. The Lexus GS this year out sold Audi A6 by over 4,000 vechicles; go figure. J.D. Power & Associates rate Audi really Low for long-term dependability. Even the dawn Hyundai rank higher than the Audi..pathetic.

Since Audi and VW are now the same company is that mean Audi is just an over price VW? most of their car and design look very similar to each other.

Lexus

Ah...ha..ha...ha...


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F12TwinTurbo