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Will Buyers Be Willing To Settle For A 4 Cylinder BMW, Or It That Just Too Far Of A Stretch

While VW-Audi has shown its U.S. interest with a brand-new plant going up in Tennessee, and Mercedes has the upper ground on all German premiums with its clear diesel initiative in North America, BMW North America's bold statement has not yet come. The company could use a big, mind-grabbing statement to bolster its profit base, and the smaller 1 Series introduction may not have the impact it is looking for in the U.S. market. Enter the idea of a four-cylinder engine for the 3 Series.

In part to counter Mercedes' recent decision to bring four-cylinder diesel engines into the North American lineup during 2010, BMW is believed to be close to committing to a four-cylinder gasoline engine strategy for the latest 3 Series (and certainly the 1 Series) in the U.S. and Canada.

 

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Will Buyers Be Willing To Settle For A 4 Cylinder BMW, Or It That Just Too Far Of A Stretch



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chewychewy - 9/4/2008 5:02:49 PMView My AgentSpace
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have fun in your 170 horsepower (even less torque) BMW

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GreenPleaseGreenPlease - 9/4/2008 6:32:51 PM
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Why 170bhp? It is easily within reach to obtain 100bhp/liter in a modern engine. Would 230hp out of a 2.3 I4 be unreasonable? I say no.

If BMW goes with direct injection, electromagnetic valve actuation, and high rev (those two have to be used together in order to achieve emissions compliance, VANOS doesn't work well above 7Krpm) there is no reason BMW can't squeeze 300bhp out of a 2.0 liter I4.

Would I buy an I4 that screams to 10k rpm? Hell yes! And I own an n54 powered e92.

BMWs are meant to scream. Make them lighter, make them dance, let us feel the road again and get all of that crap out of the car. If I wanted to be pampered I'd get a Merc or a Lexus.

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AmericaAmerica - 9/4/2008 6:34:25 PM
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What do they mean by "settle"? Some of BMWs best and most fun cars have had 4 cylinder motors. The legendary 2002 and E30 M3 prove that a 4 cylinder BMW can give an incredible driving experience. BMW has always been about the balance of a premium performance car and a car you can use everyday, so providing fuel efficient cars is the obvious progression for these days.

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chewychewy - 9/4/2008 6:51:47 PMView My AgentSpace
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electromagnetic valves are a dream at the moment, there is no point of havinga 230 horsepower 2.3 liter 4 cylinder engine, it won't get better fuel economy than the current 328i with 230 horsepower.

a 300 horsepower NA 2.0 will be pointless for a road car, and again this is about 60 horsepower more than anyone has ever done in a street engine

170 hp and only 155 lb-ft of torque is the most powerful 4 cylinder that BMW has (gas)

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1dott81dott8 - 9/4/2008 7:55:20 PMView My AgentSpace
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here goes amazin with his infatuation with Audi once again... just goes to show you that Audi is always on his mind.

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SpectatorSpectator - 9/4/2008 3:26:49 PM
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Agent 009

I do believe that throughout the 80's and 90's BMW did sell 4 cyl engines in the 3 series, with huge success. A car called the 318i.

I should know, I owned one.

So I really don't think it would be a problem to sell a more modern 4cyl in the 3 series...

The only issue BMW needs to concentrate on if they wish to do this again is to CUT THE WEIGHT OF THE FAT PIG THEY ARE PRODUCING.

Here is the trade off: want to produce a 4cyl for a BMW again...drop 1000lbs off the current vehicle. You will still maintain the same performace as your getting with your bigger engines if not better. Don't believe me?
Then dig up Colin Chapman and ask him.

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PorschinatorPorschinator - 9/4/2008 3:46:45 PM
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LOL...someone ^^ thinks light materials are cheap!?! Ummm....reduce 1000 Lbs...do you fully realize what that would involve? Added cost to the vehicle if made with materials to lighten the load by 1K lbs will be $20K US. <---conservative estimate


SpectatorSpectator - 9/4/2008 4:04:35 PM
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Back in the 80's and 90's the produced a light weight vehicle without carbon fiber and the new superlight steel and aluminum. For a lot less then the current mark up on the vehicle might I add(even if you taken in the dollars devaluing and standard annual inflation)

You just have to remove all the superfulous crap the BMW has decided to add over the years. BMW has to ask itself if it wishes to build a high quality performance oriented vehicle or a high quality town cruzing Rolls. Do you really need an I-drive in a track car? Do you really need superlux leather seats with butt warming and airconditioning when laping the nurburgring?

I'm not saying build an Ariel Atom or Caterham 7, but build a great sport coupe/sedan not a 1990's mercedes.

How many times have I heard Car Journalists as well as Race drivers who test each newer addition to the BMW 3 series line talk about how terrific each addition is yet the handling is getting more and more numb. Thats attributed to one and only one thing...weight.

So I don't think I'm remiss in asking BMW to build its vehicles to the standard it used to.


Agent009Agent009 - 9/4/2008 4:06:05 PMView My AgentSpace
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Actually I agree with Porschinator on this one.

as a group buyers demand less weight, more mileage, make is stronger and quieter, make it handle better than formula one car, make it protect me from my own stupidity (or that of others)with countless automated features. and above all we want all of that for a low price.

The reason some cars cost less is the absence of many of these features.


SpectatorSpectator - 9/4/2008 4:30:58 PM
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009

I understand what you are saying and agree that the absence of some of the features is the reason many other vehicles are much cheaper... however I respectfully disagree with the thought process that there is no way forward for BMW in the area of cheaper safe weight reduction.

All modern vehicles have to meet a minium saftey standard to be driven on the road (at least in the US) and my old 80's 3 series would meet those current standards quite well.

How do I know this?
My vehicle met an untimly demise due to the ineptitude of a Diplomat (I will not name the country of origin for fear of Godzilla tearing down my house) in a Ford Taurus Wagon back in the early 90's. It was at this point I found out that BMW had built crumple zones into its vehicles alredy. And this was in a 1980's BMW 3 series.

While I'm not foolish enough to believe that you could get rid of traction control and ABS in modern vehicles, you could however make them options. We do it today in numerous brands.

And here is where we get to the heart of what BMW does best...make everything an option.

If you want all the bells and whistles in your vehicle as well as the performance numbers...well you might have to ship out more money and bump up to the larger engine.

...But if you dont want a small buttler in the armrest reading you the Wallstreet Journal while going 'round the ring' well the 4 cyl might provide a ton of Power to Weight potentional...without the sacrifice of safety.




BMW_DRVRBMW_DRVR - 9/4/2008 4:59:09 PM
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That comment about a 80s BMW meeting todays safety standards must be a joke. Right?


chewychewy - 9/4/2008 5:16:53 PMView My AgentSpace
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unless you completely gutt a 3500 pound car, it won't weigh 2,500 pounds. Or you make it smaller, or you get rid of structural integrity and make it handle poorly.


JRobUSCJRobUSC - 9/4/2008 6:37:33 PM
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Spectator, while it's very possible that YOU would be happier with a track-based 3-Series with no bells and whistles, the fact is most consumers would not be. You also can't just go back to making the car tiny so it weighs less when everything else in the class is getting bigger (and notice the 1-Series, which is much smaller than the 3-Series , only weighs a couple hundred lbs less).

You can't do those things and expect the car to maintain its class-leading volume sales status, not when consumers are comparing the car to, say, an Audi A4, MB C-class, Infiniti G, or Acura TL. Most people aren't taking their 328i's to the track, and wouldn't take their 320i's either. Gutting all the content and features would only serve to guarantee the majority of buyers would buy something else. Making it smaller so it weighs less would only push most families to the larger competitors that cost the same. "Yeah, the BMW drives great... too bad the backseat is useless and I want power seats, leather, navigation, keyless everything, and butt warmers. I'll have to buy one of those other brands that drive almost as great but are usefully sized and have all the features I want, but yeah, that BMW drove great."

I don't think that's what BMW is looking for. If it'd what YOU'RE looking for, buy yourself a 135i with just a sport package and gut it to your hearts delight.


SpectatorSpectator - 9/5/2008 12:55:28 PM
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BMW DVR...

What on an 85 318i dosen't meet current crash and safety standards other than airbags? It has shoulder harnesses, it has crumple zones, it has safety glass, it has 5mph bumpers. I don't see where it would fail? ABS, EBC, Traction control, and every other technological stability marvel are not required to meet safety specifications for the US. So I don't see How the car BMW built 2 decades ago is truly any less viable today.

chewy...

Thanks you for actually getting to what I really want...a smaller 3 series. Yes to take a current 3 series and drop 1000 lbs you would have to gut it, however to note my track car (04 Sentra SE R Spec V) came from the factory weighing only 2700lbs, is a 4 door sedan, lacks very little in rigidity, and I would like to see how many cars could out handle it around the track even in when it was in stock form. All this and has many of the bells and whisles the 3 series has at half the price. So you can produce a lighter car with comprable size to the 3 series without resorting to driving around in just a roll cage with wheels attached.

However in the grand scheme of things I would like a smaller 3 series, which leads me to...

JRobUSC,

While I concede that the modern BMW driver is an upper middle class bean counter or soon to be/former soccer mom, and would just as likely lap the ring as go to an Death Metal concert...does BMW really want to continue to portray this image? You are absolutly correct in saying "I don't think that is what BMW is looking for" however my question to you is, "Is that what BMW should be looking for in the future?"

BMW used to stand for driving superiority. Nothing outside of a super exotic came close. A paring knife in a drawer full of meat cleavers as it were.

Now BMW seems to be happy to be just one of the 3 German brands, plus Lexus. Who all (in essence) produce the same vehicle. Same weight, same power, same price, same handling...roughly.

No longer is the BMW king of the heap. As a matter of fact it is quickly being replaced by Audi. It is now 1 of 4 (and if Acura gets its act together 1 of 5)

Why does BMW have to build the same size car as Audi and MB? Why did they have to turn the 3 series into a veritable 5 series; the 5 into a 7 and the 7 into a small limo. This was not its original path. What happened in the 90's to cause BMW to want to be, "Just one of the pack"

If we are to take a look at a car company who has recently bucked the trend, Cadillac, they have produce a vehicle (CTS)that competes with the big German 3 yet dosen't fall in the current 3,5,7 size range. This car is a smash hit. My question to BMW is why not start your own trend like GM did? Why not one up your German brethern and start producing a smaller more dynamic 3 series again. Because honestly how many 3 series owners actually use their back seats for anything other than groceries or bags from Nordstrom.

One of the problems now adays is that BMW has mo


SpectatorSpectator - 9/5/2008 1:16:34 PM
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...moved away from its original core audience to make a car for the masses. The upper class masses, but the masses none the less.

They used to have no competition in the sports sedan/coupe market yet now you have to compare them to MB and Audi and Lexus (might as well through Infiniti in that as well) for the high end lux sedan market.

And in this overly cramped market your name recognition and brand Marqui are diminished greatly. You are just one more competitor fighting for a small chunk of an increasingly diminishing pie. Especially in todays economy.

So my challenge to BMW is to regain it core audience. Build a true modern version the car you used to build, and try to regain the heritage you have squandered over the past 2 decades.


PorschinatorPorschinator - 9/4/2008 3:41:40 PM
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With a mild Turbo producing 250BHP...YES!

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LUXCAR32LUXCAR32 - 9/4/2008 3:49:11 PM
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Agreed! Only with a turbo! It would be a success because it would get good gas mileage and have similar stats to the 328. I'd start with a turbo 4 cylinder in the 1 series though.


BMW_DRVRBMW_DRVR - 9/4/2008 3:59:48 PM
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There are already four cylinder models doing well in select markets so why should the US be any different.

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dlindlin - 9/4/2008 4:02:51 PM
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Better sell my E46 before BMW becomes VW.

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MBKingMBKing - 9/4/2008 4:11:51 PM
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I could see it being an entry level, but you can't get ride of the 6 completly, that is the most legendary engine ever....don't do it!

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E36erE36er - 9/4/2008 5:21:53 PM
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The e30 M3 was a great car with an incredible inline 4. Albeit the e30s were a lot smaller than the portly e90.

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S30GTRS30GTR - 9/4/2008 8:03:24 PM
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if its a 4 popper and under 25k, those cars would sell like cake.

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GinsterCQGinsterCQ - 9/4/2008 9:26:45 PM
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It was sad when BMW abandoned their 4 cylinder cars in the late 90's. The 318 was a fun car, a bit underpowered, but fun and cheap to maintain.

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SaSpieSaSpie - 9/5/2008 6:57:44 AM
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BMW has never abandoned 4 Cylinder cars. What you do not have in america the whole world has it.


snatchandgrabsnatchandgrab - 9/5/2008 3:28:36 PM
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Oh, you brought back memories. I used to love driving 318i's. When I was in Germany I used to drive my friends.


qweasdzxcqweasdzxc - 9/4/2008 10:05:35 PM
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What's next then? BMW turns FWD for better mileage? No,wait, isn't that what AUDI did? :)

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AbstractLogic0AbstractLogic0 - 9/5/2008 12:27:57 AM
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The battery, exhaust, sunroofs, seats, brake rotors, wheels and full spare all weigh too much in BMW's. Not being biased as I prefer them.

There is room for a lightweight "LTW" track ready version of any of their car/engine line like they used to offer for the M3. They will sell. Ive never seen a race tuned BMW not sell whatever the engine.

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cptamazing4cptamazing4 - 9/5/2008 7:51:04 AM
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They could use GMs D.I 4 cyl turbo. 260hp is probably more than most BMWs 6cyl anyways.

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Htay7500Htay7500 - 9/5/2008 3:36:37 PM
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Its 6-cylinders have more than 300 hp. nice try.


1dott81dott8 - 9/5/2008 10:00:20 AMView My AgentSpace
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another Audi comment from amazin on a bmw thread. how ironic is that?

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daveravedaverave - 9/5/2008 10:58:33 AM
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1 167-hp 2-litre engine isn't far off from my Acura RSX that makes 160-hp with the same displacement. I think for more power-crazy markets, like the US, BMW ought to make a beefier 2.5L available around the 200-hp mark. If they do, I'll buy a 3-series when my current lease with Acura is up...

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enthusiastx11enthusiastx11 - 9/5/2008 12:34:04 PM
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um, the M3 had 4 cylinders in the 80s. same amazing chassis and handling though.

most 3-series sold in europe are 4 cylinders. same amazing chassis and handling.

bmw is first about fun-to-drive factor, second about power. with mercedes, it's the reverse.

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scoobysnaxscoobysnax - 9/5/2008 1:02:58 PM
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I'd love to have the 123d here in the U.S.

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snatchandgrabsnatchandgrab - 9/5/2008 3:26:47 PM
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Hell, if it's cheaper. You'll see a million of them. Just like the "C" class.

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jochetjochet - 9/5/2008 3:34:50 PM
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I'm sure there's a market for a four cylinder BMW car, but I don't believe its huge. Most buyers of BMW's even M3's want confort and options, and their heavy. I agree with others, the 328 and even the 330 will be tough to beat fuel mileage wise with a smaller engine. Us americans buy BMW's for their proformance, if we wanted economic car, we would look for a Toyota or a Mini. The best shot is a Diesel, but again us Americans don't buy a BMW for fuel economy. I drive a 550 and kid myself that averaging 19 or 20MPG is acceptable.

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adoptgreyhoundsadoptgreyhounds - 9/5/2008 4:08:35 PM
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Most Americans buy a BMW for the badge. Performance is the balance of weight, power to the ground and braking. I've six Bimmers and a Mini over the last 8yrs. 5's, 3's and M's the best usable everyday car was my 1st. new BMW '02 325i sport/mt. Great chassis just the right power, perfect steering and brakes. I would welcome and buy a 320si or 120si. Something with around 200hp and 200 lb-ft, curb weight 2.8K-3.5k wet low-mid 20's mpg city would be ideal for day to day and perfect for back roads.

If your getting 19-20mpg in a 550i your not driving it properly 12-15mpg if your on it.


Unsinn04Unsinn04 - 9/6/2008 1:32:08 AM
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The question is unfortunately whether I'll have to settle for a six cylinder. For years I've been hoping for the return of the smaller engines, and was disappointed when the announcement about the diesels for the U.S. did not include the perfectly adequate four cylinder. I've driven the 320d a number of times in Germany; and they are amazingly fuel efficient. Of course there's no comparison with something like the 335i, but that's an engine I would rarely use to its potential (I hate wasting fuel). I'm planning a trip to Munich to pick up my next car someday. Right now it looks like I may have to "settle" for everyone's favorite inlne six.

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MunichRobMunichRob - 9/6/2008 6:10:41 AMView My AgentSpace
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Personally I'm a fan of more cylinders particularly V-8's. If they decided to gas the V-8 in the new 6-series in favor of a turbo 6, I wouldn't go for it. I'm sure a 335i owner would feel the same way if BMW gassed the turbo 6 in favor of a turbo 4.

All in all BMW's projected future is bothering me...They're too focused on pointless high volume vehicles such as the X3 or the rumored X2, as opposed to low volume enthusiast machines such as the scrapped M1 & M3 CSL projects. To me BMW appears to be selling out, but I still love em'...

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