With Diesel Prices Like This, Are Diesel Cars Destined To Fail In The USA?

When the prices weren't crazy high for diesel they made a lot of sense. But with this current pricing insanity, it does make me wonder.

— Agent009 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 2:53:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

here in Cincinnati premium gas is $4.19, disel is $4.49. So it's 7% higher. But you get 30% better fuel economy. The diesel might cost a few grand more than the gas version of the car, but it's a lot less "more" than a hybrid, which typically commands $7-10k more than the gas version (or $33k in the case of the LS600h).

I still think the savings are better on a diesel.

— JRobUSC (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:48:09 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Who says you get 30% better mileage? You get more than 50% better.

Think about it: normal Jetta gets about 30MPG average. BlueMotion will get at least 45.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:56:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

S4, I was using the expected fuel economy of the more performance oriented diesels BMW is bringing over. They're expecting 30-40% better on those.

Did you see the article in Europe about the Prius versus the 520d? Not only did the much larger, 573lb heavier, less aerodynamic 520d outperform the Prius but it averaged 1.8 mpg better. And that was with the testers adding 100 miles of city driving to the trip to give an edge to the Prius.

With a diesel the fuel economy is better than a hybrid, the initial cost premium is lower than a hybrid, and you don't have to give up 1/2 the trunk in the process. The gas is 10% more expensive, but those other things outweigh that (to me). If I wanted performance AND fuel economy (and the existing crop of gas-only engines wasn't giving me what I wanted) then a diesel is what I'd be looking at.

— JRobUSC (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 5:57:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

If you go to fueleconony.gov and click on 'find and compare cars", you can see COMBINED mileage based on the NEW 2008 specs. They even retroactively adjust older cars' estimates back to 1985.

Take a look at the 2006 Golf TDI. Though it claims 34 MPG (better than almost EVERY 2008 vehicles, barring the hybrids), it shows that drivers in the real world are getting 45 MPG! The Civic Hybrid and Prius are getting 44MPG and 46MPG respectively in the real world (almost same as the EPA's estimates).

If people are going to pay extra for hybrids, then why not a diesel? It's too bad VW quit making the TDIs, but used ones are available. I think this would be this best deal and best for the environment (less waste). There was a recent article posted that used cars are better than buying a new hybrid.

— Auto_expert (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 5:58:26 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

lol thats crappy comparison jrob, the amount of money you save by buying a prius over a diesel bmw alone cancels out your gas mileage woes. Why would you compare a bmw to a toyota??? Vw I can see...

— xlr8 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/25/2008 9:40:25 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

The automakers selling diesels should promote the long ranges between fill-ups too.

It is realy cool to go 600 miles between visiting the service stations. I think the 'math' works best on the big SUV's (A7, GL450, X5, etc) that get such lousy gas mileage (13-18MPG in mixed traffice driving - i.e. a usual commute) that fillups are both really frequent and really expensive, versus averaging 22-28 MPG in the diesel versions, without a noticable performance penalty.

I don't think the 'math' works on small, relatively inexpensive cars that get decent mileage already (i.e. the Jetta) because those buyers would be more sensitive to the business case.

In the real world where perception is reality, I think the difference between 13-18MPG versus 22-28MPG in an gas vs diesel SUV is really significant whereas the different between a small/cheap car that gets 25MPG in the gas version and 35MPG in the diesel is just not that big of a deal.

— nybimmer (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 2:52:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

This is something I have been pondering. Especially since I am thinking about selling my F250 Diesel; esecially since D2 is running $485 a gallon in my area! Too many reasons why but still BS and going to kill the Diesel.

— Porschinator (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 2:53:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

The way I see it, the cars and trucks that get the best mileage on REGULAR gas are the way to go in this scenario of pricing...Anything hybrid or higher mileage gasoline is the only hope in a situation like this.

001

— Agent001 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:07:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

It only makes sense that as more diesel cars enter the U.S. market, the higher the prices of diesel rise. The oil industry is the LAST industry to not be affected by supply and demand.

— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:11:46 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I smell a rat! Diesel should be cheaper, I heard that most US produced diesel is shipped to Europe, not sure if this is true, anybody know the facts? Most of the European vehicles comming with diesel would be an alternative to a premium gas vehicle, so for most prospective purchasers the difference is between premium and diesel. Not as big a difference as between regular and diesel.

— steve27t (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:26:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Good, we Americans don't care.

— ricer (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:28:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Seriously, what has caused gas to go up so high over the past year or so?

I paid $4.39/gal for 91oct this morning (San Diego). Sucks, but not having a real reason for the price increase is what is frustrating.

Sad that disels might not be as promising now. The new designs look pretty kick ass.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:29:13 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

How do US gas/diesel prices compare world wide any one know? Is the US the only place where diesel price has increased so much over regular gas?

— 1000rrRider (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:39:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

I'm sure there's a conspiracy and I'm sure that Toyota's behind it! ;-)

— _43LE (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 3:45:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

must read piece on why diesel fuel prices will be a problem

http://www.caranddriver.com/layout/set/print/features/columns/c_d_staff/csaba_csere_the_steering_column/should_american_vehicles_go_diesel_just_when_the_world_is_running_short_of_it_column

— phlevin (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 4:35:56 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

This appears to be a worldwide problem. Prices in UK are now around £1.35 per LITRE for diesel and £1.15 for petrol. Equates to about $10 per US gallon for diesel ($9 for petrol) and it is expected to rise more here in the next couple of months.

— prohack (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 4:41:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Diesel fuel has traditionally sold for a little less than gasoline. At the moment, in my area (Richmond, Virginia) Diesel sells for about $.50 per gallon more than premium.

Your question about the success of diesel cars in the U.S. begs the question - WHY are diesel prices so much higher than gasoline?

I know the federal excise tax on diesel fuel is 6 cents a gallon higher than for gas. I am also aware that low-sulfur diesel fuel, now available in all 50 states, costs a little more to refine than regular diesel. However, these two factors are NOT enough to explain the wide price variance between gasoline & diesel fuel.

Does anybody know why?

— Audiphile (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 5:09:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

It couldn't possibly be because if people all buy diesels, they'll use less fuel and oil company profits would go down ;)

001

— Agent001 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 5:16:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

There are diesel production problems in the US that have caused diesel to spike higher than gas has spiked. The primary issue was the colder than expected winter which caused heating oil consumption to be much higher than anticipated. Home heating oil, jet fuel, and diesel are very similar and are refined in the same facilities. The extra home heating oil had to be produced and it took away from diesel refining capacity of the plants. Prices of diesel should come back closer to gasoline prices as the summer wears on. Or I should say, gasoline prices will probably rise faster than diesel through the summer decreasing the discrepancy.

— robertb (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 6:03:34 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

Agent001 is correct. If the car company’s came out with a line of cars and trucks that got 50 miles per gallon, the oil company’s would raise the price of gas too $10 a gallon. They would not do it all at once but they would do it like they do now. 5 cents here, 5 cents there, and pretty soon it’s gone up a few dollars. Basically we are getting totally ripped off. The oil company’s have a huge monopoly and they work together to keep prices the same between company’s so they can all make obscene profits and the government will not do anything about it. It’s B.S.!!!

— SteveL (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 6:04:44 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

with oil companies having record profit years, as gas prices sky rocket, its make you wonder if there is a legitimate reason for high gas prices other than to see how far the market will go

— bmwdrvr (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 7:13:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Motorweek, the PBS TV show just ran a segment comparing gas, diesel, hybrid versions of several vehicles. Find the article at
http://www.mpt.org/motorweek/autoworld.shtml

— westy1974 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/22/2008 9:15:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Gas prices are going up because of two primary reasons: First, US Dollar isn't worth squat (dollar is the official oil trade currency), thanks to constant lowering of prime interest rates by the fed, which is done to 'avoid' recession, and second, because of the increased demand from countries like India and China, currently experiencing economic boom with increased demand for oil. It will be very hard for diesel to break through here in US, simply because American refineries weren't designed to produce amounts of diesel fuel that would satisfy increasing diesel market. I'm not sure what the exact percentage is, but the vast majority of fuel produced from a barrel of oil is gasoline, diesel being a very small percentage. All in all, gas is US is still significantly less expensive than all of Europe.

— koobah (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 2:42:41 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

the increased prices for gas, food, and everything imported, is the previously hidden (or simply IGNORED by the Bushites) WAR TAX coming home to bite us!

plummeting dollar and rising price of oil ($130/bbl and rising) are DIRECTLY RELATED to u.s. govt's WANTON SPENDING. with the ACRES of printing press dollars backed by NOTHING.

— ChicaneShooter (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 6:55:17 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Its not only in the US. Here (UAE), diesel prices are more than 3 times as expensive as petrol, and I just heard in the news that diesel prices will go up again.

— M53R (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 12:06:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Funny. Diesel is a side effect of refining oil to gasoline... No way to get around it. Guess marketing explains this.

— JWalkerLegrande (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 12:58:12 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

here in Houston, diesel is almost a $1 more than regular gas!

sorry not worth it - and the EPA ratings are now out for the 09 Jetta diesel - 30/41.

— bagwell (View Profile)

Posted on 5/23/2008 6:02:11 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

you still get more BTUs per Gallon in Diesel as Opposed to gas. So even if you pay more, you are getting more.

Diesel Sticks, 2 speed axle would be they way to go. High efficiency, great torque.

— mercuryguy (View Profile)

Posted on 5/24/2008 1:58:18 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

The cost of the Diesel is more, because it is a heavyer duty block, designed for loger service life than a gas engine.

We need to get back to the idea of owning a car for more than a few years, then the Diesel will pay for itself, but you need to keep it long enough.

The US has become acustomed to the disposable idea. Use a product for a year, then toss it it a landfill.

— mercuryguy (View Profile)

Posted on 5/24/2008 2:02:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

New York State still has a ban on Diesel Cars.

During the energy crisis of late 70s early 80s, my friends parents bought an 83 Isuzu small pickup, 2WD, 4 cylinder Diesel Stick. They were getting almost 50 MPG then. they decided to buy a 2nd one a year later, the dealer sadly had to turn people away as New York State stepped in and made them illegal and non-registerable. Talk about big brother. Ironically, this was in the year 1984. creepy.

They need the tax revenue on each gallon of gasoline.

— mercuryguy (View Profile)

Posted on 5/24/2008 2:16:01 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

A clear Monopoly.

Anyone notice that the Oil Companies have huge supplies of crude, especially from the spoils of Iraq,
yet there is a very limited supply of refined product?

It is very simple, get the crude for next to nothing, limit the amount you refine today, an make people pay dearly. Raise Diesel to limit choice.

The oil companies are gabbing as maximum profit now, because they know that the falling US Dollar, and recession will force people to spend less in the coming years, so they are fortifying their profits now to weather the future storm.

Congress negotiates as if Oil Companies were a SuperPower foreign country.

— mercuryguy (View Profile)

Posted on 5/24/2008 2:40:05 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Perhaps the BMW Diesels coming to the US will become a niche product? Super Torque for the drivers that demand them, hope it is it available to all but i guess we'll see...

— DiamondJim (View Profile)

Posted on 5/24/2008 2:00:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Autoexpert,
VW didn't voluntarily stop making TDI, the gov't outlawed them for being too dirty. The TDI just returned to Canada about a year ago.

Regarding the EPA estimates (of which the Prius wins on highway and destroys the Jetta in the city). Did you look at the carbon footprint and barrels of oil used for diesels vs. hybrids? Hyrid carbon footprints and barrels of oil are 1/2 that of diesels. Prius 4 and 7.4 barrles vs the TDI's 6.2 and 11.6 barrels.

JrRob,
There's the diesel premium, then the clean diesel premium.
The Canadian Jetta TDI used to be $22,000, now it's $27,500 because of the diesel fad (and that's before we get clean diesel).

Why is everyone surprised? Higher demand = higher prices. Diesel over here just doesn't enjoy the benefits of gov't subsidies.

Where I am, gas is $1.21/L and diesel is $1.37/L. You never see the people who were suckered into buying a diesel smiling anymore.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/24/2008 2:48:56 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

It is time for the Airline idea to come to a close. Flying Airplanes and burning jet fuel is now an idea from a by-gone era. Even the Airline execs say that the business model was built on a 1930s economy.

1 Ship can move thousands of passengers in one Atlantic crossing. Taking the train is a far more efficient idea as well. GotoMeeting and tele-conferencing is another smart idea.

We just need to get used to the idea that we can’t expect to be in a city within a few hours. We will need to become more patient as a people.

— mercuryguy (View Profile)

Posted on 5/24/2008 7:27:49 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

If the government brings back filling up on odd and even days based upon your plate number, and if we start to see “OUT OF GAS” signs at stations again(70s), I would rather have a Diesel and fill up with a product other than what the majority of the population uses.

— mercuryguy (View Profile)

Posted on 5/24/2008 7:31:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Mercuryguy,
Better stake out a spot nice and early behind all those 18wheelers trying to fill up.

The CNN documentary that aired last week using a hypothetical oil shortage showed diesel and gasoline ran out at the same time.

You can produce 2x the amount of gasoline from a barrel of oil than you can diesel, and gasoline is available at every station, diesels are predominantly found on the highways.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 5/25/2008 5:00:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

The new Jetta TDI should come in around 45 mpg (city/hwy combined). The regular, 2.5-liter, gas-powered Jetta comes in around 25 mpg (city/hwy combined). Using the kind of math I learned, the diesel Jetta will do much more than 30% better fuel economy as has been assumed in this discussion (45-25=20/25=80%).

Now, lets assume that diesel fuel remains $.75 higher per gallon more than regular gas at competitive fuel stations, even though this scenario is highly unlikely over the long term. If I drive 400 miles in a diesel Jetta @ $4.60 per gallon, and I drive 400 miles in a gas Jetta @ $3.85, I will still save driving a diesel (diesel = 400/45=8.89 gallons X $4.60 = $40.89) (gas = 400/25=16 gallons X $3.85 = $61.60) Diesel fill up savings = 61.60 - 40.89 = $20.71.

One problem I discovered with those figures. The Jetta has only a 14.5 gallon tank, so the gas Jetta can't go 400 miles unless it is only highway miles. The diesel Jetta, on the other hand, will have a long way to go after 400 miles (14.5 X 45 = 652.5).

The premium price paid for the TDI, which is overstated by some in this discussion (they used Canadian dollars for the diesel versus U.S. dollars for the gas Jetta) will be around $2100 for equal trim (2.5 trim versus TDI trim). The current Jetta TDI resales at $4100 more than the gas Jetta 2.5 after 2 1/2 years and 40K miles. I think the difference in resale value more than makes up for the small premium at the original sale, plus drivers get a superior torque driving experience like they have never experienced before and the added option to run blends of alternative fuel without modification and without losing fuel economy!

Huu76s proclomation about making twice the amount of gasoline from a barrel of oil is preposterous. He is reading politically-motivated articles, brought to you by hybrid proponents who are scared that other technologies may do as well as their picked technology for saving the planet!

I can buy diesel fuel everywhere and have never had a problem, mostly because I can go 650 miles before finding a fuel station. Diesel fuel is everywhere along the highways and the only place someone might have trouble finding fuel is in highly urban locations.

— gregsfc (View Profile)

Posted on 5/31/2008 7:36:52 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Gregory,
Preposterous indeed. Read and learn something.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/gasoline/index.html

Wow, the Jetta TDI gets 45mpg on a good day. The prius already does this but uses 1/2 the oil.

Gasoline in Canada is $1.25/L vs $1.39/L for diesel.

Spin your love of diesel all you want, doesn't change the fact that its only efficient if you drive a transport truck.

If you get hoodwinked into going all euro and buying a diesel, that's your fault.

the way gas prices are right now, the hybrid premium will be paid for after 17,000km.

Jetta TDI $27,500 (used to be $22,000 before the diesel fad kicked in).
Prius $29,500
Camry-hybrid $30.500

$0.15 spread in gas vs diesel = 17,000km, less than 1yr of driving.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/1/2008 6:05:33 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

incase you cant' read, the link shows that after the average 42gallon barrel of crude is separated into its parts, 19 gallons is gasoline grade while only 9 gallons is diesel grade.

Can you do the math?

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 6/1/2008 6:07:39 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1