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Edmunds: Lexus LS460
The flagship of the fleet should be fashioned from an uncommon and uncompromised blend of technology and opulence. It should sport elements that distinguish it from the lesser vessels of the line, instill in its occupants an aura of invincibility and convey to the driver a lofty level of dynamic excellence, tempered but not tamed by a lush layer of luxury.

Does the 2007 Lexus LS 460, flagship of Toyota's youthful premium franchise, live up to these criteria? Yes. Is the LS 460 the equal of such grandees of the high-end game as the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and BMW 7 Series? After a week in this standard-wheelbase example, our answer is, "Not yet."

A two-tiered model line
For the first time, the LS is offered in two versions. The standard LS 460 ($61,000) is just over a half-inch longer overall than the outgoing LS 430, but its wheelbase is 1.8 inches longer and both tracks are 1.5 inches wider. The extended-wheelbase LS 460L ($71,000) adds 4.7 inches in length over the LS 460 with an equal increase in wheelbase. To maintain styling equilibrium between the two new models, the front and rear overhang dimensions are identical.

The LS 460's 198-inch overall length falls halfway between the Mercedes-Benz E-Class' 191 inches and the S-Class' 205 inches. At 4244 pounds, the Lexus is no lightweight, but it does beat the aluminum-rich Audi A8 by about 44 pounds. The S550 and 745i each weigh about 220 pounds more.

Our Mercury Metallic tester was well optioned, which kicked up the sticker to more than $72,000, a hefty sum that could have been lowered by $5,645 through elimination of the navigation system and Mark Levinson Reference Surround Audio system. However, the car did not include several notable options, including the Advanced Parking Guidance System — which basically parks the car for you — or Lexus' new Pre-Collision System with Dynamic Radar Cruise Control, which senses a possible front collision and prepares the car accordingly. Nor did it have the air suspension, which is only available on the LS 460L.

First in the race to 8x8
Both LS models share a single drivetrain: a new 4.6-liter V8 with all the electronic gizmos imaginable, and it sends power to the rear wheels through a world-first eight-speed automatic transmission.

It's the world's first combination of eight-cylinder engine and eight-speed transmission, and it was worth the wait. Aided by such engine-uity as the world's first electrically controlled valve timing system, dual injection and an electronically controlled induction system, the 460's sophisticated engine is as smooth as Swiss chocolate melting in the sun. Its 380 horsepower is a 102-hp bump over the previous 4.3-liter V8's output, and the 367 pound-feet of torque is a 55 lb-ft increase in twist.

Equally state-of-the-art is the transmission. A new hydraulic control system utilizes four disc clutches for ultrasmooth gear transitions, and a torque converter with variable control helps low- and midrange torque and delivers better fuel economy. The driver can choose to shift manually or drop it into "S" mode, which defaults to gear choices from 4th through 7th. Every mode is effortless to initiate, and it all works smoothly enough, but we would have preferred a little spark in performance when we were manually shifting through the gears. At the test track we tried both automatic and manual gearbox modes, but found the performance to be equivalent with either shift input.

Our test car accelerated from zero to 60 mph in 5.8 seconds, an admirable figure but slower than the 5.4 seconds claimed by the factory. We couldn't match the claimed quarter-mile time of 13.8 seconds either — 14.2 seconds was our best run.

Far more important was the V8's utter lack of obvious effort, even when it was recording performance numbers on par with the larger V8 of the Mercedes-Benz. So seamlessly and effortlessly is the power delivered, however, that putting the pedal down is about as thrilling as watching the Golf Channel. On the upside, the power boost is accompanied by class-leading fuel mileage ratings of 19 city/27 highway. We recorded a best of 25 mpg out of three tanks of fuel.

Floaty, but still quick and controlled
To help reduce unsprung weight, aluminum was used extensively throughout the suspension. Up front is a new upper and lower wishbone setup with coil-over monotube shocks and a hollow stabilizer bar, while out back the multilink suspension carried over from the previous LS has had its mass reduced and settings firmed up for better ride and handling. Coil-overs and a stabilizer bar are also part of the package.

Our biggest beef with the LS 460 is that the suspension is tuned too softly and doesn't sufficiently stifle the excessive nose dive during braking and body lean through hard corners. Plus, it doesn't do particularly well damping the concrete freeway jiggle that occurs over expansion joints. The competition seems to have figured out how to combine crisp body control with a supple ride.

After a flurry of complaints about the too-intrusive vehicle stability system in some of its vehicles, Lexus responded by fitting the LS 460 with a switch that allows the system to be completely turned off. This allowed us to really explore the handling limits of this big sedan, and we left the test track impressed. Its 0.82g skid pad and 63-mph slalom number are average at best, but it's well-balanced for a car this size. It's big and it rolls a lot, but it sticks pretty well and the fundamentals required to control it at the limit are intuitive.

The other dynamic element that troubled us was the LS 460's brakes. In stop-and-go traffic, the electronically controlled four-wheel discs are grabby and abrupt and inserted a slight hiccup into an otherwise suave progression down the road. We didn't dislike them nearly as much during our tests, however, when they exhibited negligible fade and short stopping distances. From 60 mph the Lexus stops in just 128 feet, which is almost as short as the Mercedes S550.

A more sophisticated system is available with the optional Touring Package, which includes larger spiral-fin ventilated rotors, high-friction brake pads, four-piston aluminum calipers in front and two-piston aluminum calipers in the rear. We're eager to experience those bigger binders.

Luxury condo living, on wheels
If there's a faultless aspect of the LS 460, it's the interior. In an ergonomic sense, the cockpit's layout is perfection. There's no great learning curve required to operate the climate controls, audio system and other features, and the Optitron electroluminescent gauges are especially handsome in design and effective visual messengers. The front seats are so fully adjustable — 16 ways — that any humanoid species would have no trouble dialing in a comfortable position, and those in the rear needn't suffer either.

Ordering up the Comfort Package buys climate-controlled front seats, heated rear seats, a heated steering wheel and a power rear window sunshade, while the Comfort Plus Package adds power reclining rear seats and headrests, climate-controlled front and rear seats and rear seat-mounted side airbags. This $3,620 option brought our test car's airbag total up to 10, two more than Lexus' class-leading eight standard bags. (With the Executive Class Seating Package in the 460L, the number of airbags is 11.) The front-passenger and knee bags are dual-stage, and the passenger's bag also is twin-chambered to reduce facial/cranial contact with the expanding bag.

The interior is just as brilliant in an aesthetic sense. Grain-matched wood trim — available in medium brown walnut, dark gray bird's eye maple and dark brown ash — is complemented by standard perforated leather upholstery, offered in alabaster white, cashmere or light gray. From the exquisite stitching in the leather to the matching of the wood grain, the fit and finish is without peer. For example, the wood trim on the steering wheel is provided by Tendo, a high-end furniture studio.

We're less taken, however, with the sedan's overall exterior design, which seems so calculatedly derivative of other recent Lexus designs that its singular dynamic qualities seem subjugated by the family resemblance. There's too much BMW 7 Series in the shape as well.

It's all in the driving, or is it?
To quote the chief designer of the Lexus LS 460, Yo Hiruta: "The ratio of design cost to total car cost is higher for Lexus than for other cars."

You could have fooled us. Perhaps we're being too harsh, but assessing the new Lexus LS 460 in light of Mr. Hiruta's statement does lend some clarity to our ambivalence about this fourth generation of Lexus' flagship sedan. It's a car we deeply respect and admire, but it's not one that has swept us off our feet. While we value its comfort, impeccable build quality and expected reliability, what we love most about cars is driving them, and the LS 460 falls just short of delivering the snappy, precise control of the road we covet most. If we were somehow penalized to give up our driver license, we can think of few other cars in which we'd rather be the passenger.

Still, despite some areas we feel could use some improvement — a too-soft suspension, grabby brakes, uninspired styling — there is no disputing the LS 460's rightful place at the head of the Lexus fleet.

Vehicle Tested:
2007 Lexus LS 460 4dr Sedan (4.6L 8cyl 8A)
MSRP of Test Vehicle: $72,275 Price It!!

What Works:
Ultraquiet cabin, sensible switches and controls, seamless powertrain, 19 speakers of Mark Levinson sound.

What Needs Work:
Floaty suspension, abrupt brake feel, too much finesse, not enough spice in the styling.

Bottom Line:
The standard-wheelbase LS 460 earned our respect, even admiration, but it couldn't win our love.

Edmunds: Lexus LS460



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BMW530iBMW530i - 10/19/2006 9:27:33 PM
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Is the LS 460 the equal of such grandees of the high-end game as the Mercedes-Benz S-Class and BMW 7 Series? After a week in this standard-wheelbase example, our answer is, "Not yet."

=====================================


Oh boy, FLAME WAR...


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lexusis350lexusis350 - 10/20/2006 4:33:00 PM
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BMW530i, I'm impressed. You put the article on here and it wasn't necessarily bashing Lexus.


CarboyCarboy - 10/20/2006 6:12:38 PMView My AgentSpace
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I hate to say this, but I think the Lexus LS460 is going to be even with the S-Class,and i think it somehow weird about this Japan vs German thing.


awsomeaudiawsomeaudi - 10/19/2006 10:59:12 PM
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Aww ok give lexus some credit theyre not a "performance" brand like bimmer and mercedes theyre more biased on luxury

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EL34EL34 - 10/19/2006 11:30:39 PM
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Will, at least the car has sensible switches.

The sides of the LS reminds me of a Ford Expedition.


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S4cabriofoxS4cabriofox - 10/19/2006 11:41:29 PM
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Will, you just dissed a Lexus. By saying the 5 Series is hideous and the LS reminds you of it, you're saying the LS is hideous.

Is the world coming to an end?


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luvmybmrluvmybmr - 10/20/2006 10:45:43 AM
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Bmw's designs are composed of consistant lines. that give the car the feel that it is moving while standing still. unlike a lexus which looks like its going slower when its parked :)

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answeranswer - 10/19/2006 11:11:50 PMView My AgentSpace
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Not every vehicle needs to be sporty.

The name Lexus itself comes from the words "elegant luxury". A sporty charachter is not required for this Lexus to be successful. It excels at doing well built luxury better than anyone else.

The LS has never been engineered to be "sporty", but at the same time it doesn't deny itself of performance. Remember, when the Porsche Boxster first appeared, the LS at the time was able to out accelerate it.



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S4cabriofoxS4cabriofox - 10/19/2006 11:42:54 PM
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You said Lexus was "elegant luxury".

It sure is luxurious, but it's missing the elegance and distinction to make it stand out from its competitors. In other words, they have no style, inside or out. They may be built well and they may be smooth, but that doesn't compensate for their lackluster, derivative styling.



BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 7:58:30 AM
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The word Lexus comes from the German word "luxus", which means "luxury". Some German friends of mine taught me that. ;)


luvmybmrluvmybmr - 10/20/2006 10:47:28 AM
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germans incorporate luxury and performance.


EL34EL34 - 10/19/2006 11:28:41 PM
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What Works:
Ultraquiet cabin, sensible switches and controls, seamless powertrain, 19 speakers of Mark Levinson sound.

What Needs Work:
Floaty suspension, abrupt brake feel, too much finesse, not enough spice in the styling.

Bottom Line:
The standard-wheelbase LS 460 earned our respect, even admiration, but it couldn't win our love.




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lexusis350lexusis350 - 10/20/2006 4:38:54 PM
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What needs work is the reviewers senses. Anyone who can say that the LS is too much is obviously losing it.


S4cabriofoxS4cabriofox - 10/19/2006 11:40:29 PM
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"Still, despite some areas we feel could use some improvement — a too-soft suspension, grabby brakes, uninspired styling..."

I am so sick of looking at this car in pictures. I almost want to like it so my wife can look at it, but the styling is just so boring, and I can't get past that.

Wilco- Are you serious? That's one of the worst pictures of it I've ever seen! And that's quite an achievement!


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S4cabriofoxS4cabriofox - 10/20/2006 11:52:03 PM
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And yet, the LS interior lacks distinction and flair.

It's perfectly built, as in all Lexuses, but they all have a glaring flaw that is spelled d-e-r-i-v-a-t-i-v-e.

All of their interiors could come from any other luxury brand out there right now. They need to set a place for themselves- their cars remind me of Hyundai in their inconsistent designs.

You want luxury? The Mercedes cars and a few Jaguar models offer generous amounts of traditional, sumptuous style in this area. You want tech? The BMW models cater to your every need (except build quality). You want both? Get an Audi, or if you can't quite afford that A8L, reach for an Acura RL.

I just don't see where Lexus fits into this equation. The LS's interior pales in comparison with the A8's and S-Class's- in short, it will look dated very fast. I wish Lexus could do better, but with so little experience, it's painfully obvious that they can't. It's a perfectly competent car, but in some cases, competent just isn't enough.


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S4cabriofoxS4cabriofox - 10/22/2006 2:45:30 PM
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I know, I know. A complete copy.

But look at the 7 Series/S-Class interior, and look at the new LS interior next to it. The German interiors just look a lot more special... like they were tailor-made for an ultra-luxury sedan. The LS's interior could've come from the IS had they changed a few trim pieces.


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2JZSoarer2JZSoarer - 10/20/2006 12:36:11 AM
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Who care what the car magazines say,I bet you this vehicle is going to outsell every other flagship vehicle on the market in a couple of months!!!

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AUDIMAN4AUDIMAN4 - 10/20/2006 12:40:07 AM
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This car reminds me of a Sunset Boulevard hooker at an opera--trying to be part of the elite crowd, but not quite making the grade. This car just isn't in the same league as BMW or MB, and also undercuts the A8.

It'll sell to value minded Americans, but those who truly want the best will stick with BMW, MB, or Audi.


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kart1kart1 - 10/20/2006 11:01:32 AM
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"value-minded Americans" It is the Europeans who offer fake leather and cloth seats - not the Japanese or Americans (All Japanese Luxury cars come with real leather). You don't see any Japanese luxury buyer get the cloth seats so he/she can have the value version.


AUDIMAN4AUDIMAN4 - 10/20/2006 5:36:11 PM
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528i, the reason I have not commented on this topic is because I simply do not care about Lexus, or any of its' products. This LS will probably outsell the competition in the US because it is priced lower and also caters to American tastes--big, sloppy handling, light steering.

In Europe, and around the world, this car still will not be viewed as serious competition to the 7 or S, and not even the A8.

It's interesting to me how ignorant posters can claim the A8 is not a serious contender in this category--if asked why, your only response would be because "it's an Audi, and in the US, Audi does not have the name recognition". It wouldn't be because the A8 line lacks any of the features, content, engine choices, performance versions, or build quality as BMW or MB, but simply because of the badge. Classic American thinking at it's finest.

Contrast this with Euro/world tastes, and you'll find this LS and the Lexus brand in general no where to be found. Japanese themselves even show preference for German brands. There is nothing wrong with preferencial differences between US and world consumers, but to state that this car is somehow better than the competition because it outsells them in one country (the US) is stupid logic. But then again, what else could you expect from the posters on this website.



IamEvilHomerIamEvilHomer - 10/22/2006 11:07:35 AM
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audi dosen't have fake leather in any cars in the usa


BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 8:02:50 AM
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Again, Ricemaster spewing his bullshit. I don't believe you for one second abou the "CLS handling", especially since I have driven it too. Man, you're filled with shit.

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luvmybmrluvmybmr - 10/20/2006 10:53:03 AM
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"recently drove a CLS500 with AMG sport suspension and it's handling and tactile feedback is worse than a base Camry"

wow.. what are you going to say next? that camry is part of the line up of ferraris?


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lexusis350lexusis350 - 10/20/2006 4:43:53 PM
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Are you saying the CLS is in the lineup of Ferraris?

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Matthew1Matthew1 - 10/20/2006 1:54:18 AM
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Here's the thing:

You don't want ANY car to have excessive roll around corners and pitching under brakes.

It's fine being comfortable and well-engineered, but where is the comfort if the car's body pitches and rolls? And what is 'well-engineered' when Lexus can't combine a flawless ride with secure and controlled dynamics?

Mercedes-Benz has the perfect (note 'perfect', Lexus fans) compromise between both a cossetting ride and agile handling. And because of this, the S-Class is the better car dynamically.

You don't have to be a race-car driver to benefit from stable and agile handing, (Many here think it doesn't matter unless you are on a race-track) whether it be a section of twisty road, a sudden evasive manoeuvre and even day-to-day driving, having flat, agile handling is paramount for comfortable, safe (and don't forget fun -cars need to have an element of fun) driving.

When you pay that much for a 'flag-ship', you expect the car to perform flawlessly in all areas of driving. To compromise handling for a more cushy ride is pointless, as Mercedes-Benz has proven you can have both in equal measure. I mean, the new LS isn't really any more comfortable than the S-Class, as it "doesn't do particularly well damping the concrete freeway jiggle".

To prove a point, the sumptuous and cossetting Bentley Arnage is actually a formidable track-weapon. Not in the traditional sense of seeing off Evo's and M3's, (although it would put up a good fight) but in the fact it can be thrown into easily-controlled oversteer, grips hard and has well-controlled damping. I've seen one, and it was amazing.

For me, the S-Class is simply the better car. The LS is more than competent, but the S-Class does more things right. It not only provides a whisper-quiet and comfortable ride, but it is at home on a twisting road, the interior looks more special (not sharing the same architecture as lesser models), and in my opinion looks more aggressive and commanding on the road. A jack of all trades. The COMPLETE package, if you will.

Lexus hasn't failed with the new LS, but as I have always known, it is simply not a better car than the S-Class. A worthy rival which will undoubtedly keep Mercedes and BMW honest, but not the outstanding car a Lexus flag-ship is perceived to be.

And back to cornering, it may not be essential on a leisurely cruise to the golf club, but why would you buy a car for that purpose?

Cars are meant to be DRIVEN! So drive them!



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luvmybmrluvmybmr - 10/20/2006 10:55:05 AM
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"Mercedes-Benz has the perfect (note 'perfect', Lexus fans) compromise between both a cossetting ride and agile handling. And because of this, the S-Class is the better car dynamically."

actually mathew, i hate to admit it, but the ls460 is more agile then the s550. im not only telling you by first hand experience. but also from a pro's perspective :)



S4cabriofoxS4cabriofox - 10/20/2006 11:57:33 PM
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"For me, the S-Class is simply the better car. The LS is more than competent, but the S-Class does more things right. It not only provides a whisper-quiet and comfortable ride, but it is at home on a twisting road, the interior looks more special (not sharing the same architecture as lesser models), and in my opinion looks more aggressive and commanding on the road. A jack of all trades. The COMPLETE package, if you will.

Lexus hasn't failed with the new LS, but as I have always known, it is simply not a better car than the S-Class. A worthy rival which will undoubtedly keep Mercedes and BMW honest, but not the outstanding car a Lexus flag-ship is perceived to be."

This has summed up everything I've been trying to say in a very smart few paragraphs.

Very nice!

I completely agree. Lexus is very nice, but it doesn't offer that COMPLETE package that most of us crave.



mbrulesmbrules - 10/20/2006 2:35:26 AM
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RICEMASTER - You say that a base CAMRY has better handling & Feedback than a MB CLS500 with the AMG package. YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY NOT TAKEN YOUR MEDICATION THIS MORNING. Nobody in their right mind would say something that silly.

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themantheman - 10/20/2006 6:22:46 AM
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Maybe you got the two of them confused, even for a heavy luxurious car, the CLS has superb handling..Infact the CLS has better handling than the E-class..Dont ever compare a Camry to the CLS..EVER..


lexusis350lexusis350 - 10/20/2006 4:47:20 PM
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Nobody in their right mind would disagree. It's true. Go try out a Camry, you might learn something.


themantheman - 10/20/2006 11:43:11 PM
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Maybe your right, but following your analogy, the Camry would have better handling superior to all of the Germans four door luxury/performance cars including the CLS63 and M5..


lexusis350lexusis350 - 10/21/2006 2:18:11 PM
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The Camry was never meant to be a performance car, it was never meant to have more handling than a sport luxury car. It was meant to be a family car and it does that. The CLS was meant to be a performance car, it was meant to have handling like a sport luxury car, but it handles like a family car. The comparison between a Camry and a CLS are very similar.


Agent63Agent63 - 10/20/2006 5:47:17 AMView My AgentSpace
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I honestly think it's all marketing and styling is subjective.. Once 5 people say one car is bad quality, everyone will jump on the band wagon and be judgemental. Test drive it, if you like the feel then buy it. If not then shop more. Simple concept prior to any critism.

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luvmybmrluvmybmr - 10/20/2006 10:58:28 AM
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"S-CLASS however is an inferiorly built and less refine vehicle than the LS. Go drive the two, you will clearly feel/hear how much cruder the Benz is and how supremely refine the LS is. Sit in the seats and you'll quickly notice how much softer and smoother than LS seats are, but that doesn't mean they aren't supportive, it just feels more like someone took the time to do make sure the owners are better pampered."

thats completely opinionated. s-class is not as agile as the LS. but when i sat in the sclass it was more inviting then the LS IMO


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ToyotaLexusToyotaLexus - 10/20/2006 3:06:10 AM
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When they test the cars they test them on test tracks, however when u say "Cars are meant to be DRIVEN! So drive them!" The lexus owners do that with the biggest pleasure because it is more than enough for the roads usual people drive on, my dad has an LS430 and when i take it from time to time i enjoy the drive so much and the pull of the car when you floor it is amazing, power in the LS430 is very good, how would the 460 be?

And btw, i drove my friends 2003 S500 and it does not handle well whatsoever, this is the real definition of a boat, the 2003 S and CL as i already said in other pages. Im being dead serious and this is not bias.

The only problem i really feel in the LS430 is the brakes, they are more or less weak and they have no feel, other than that, you can't ask anything more from the car when it gives you unbleivable comfort, sound system, reliability, options, power compared to engine size etc...etc... i can go on for ages.

+ as RICEMASTER said, the S and 7 aren't that good at handling, well the 7 series is the best but does not give you as much comfort that a luxury car should give you, so if you want a sports car you should buy yourself another car.
A porsche for instance, the german car i really respect.


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S4cabriofoxS4cabriofox - 10/21/2006 12:01:49 AM
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The new S-Class is out now, fellas.

And it's crashed on everyone's party!

It's simply the most desirable sedan in the world-- the S65 AMG, that is.

And Wilco, it has an in-dash six disc CD Player, just like the E-Class. ;-)



ToyotaLexusToyotaLexus - 10/20/2006 3:14:09 AM
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I understand that but when u see a 91 LS a 91 S-class and a 91 7-series which of them dates less? The S and 7 outdate very quickly. Look at the 98LS and 98 S and 98 7-series.??

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miryoku99miryoku99 - 10/20/2006 3:31:52 AM
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Talk to a dealer about this article (I did) and they'll tell you the 460L with the Touring Package (bigger brakes and air suspension) gets you the same handling as the S class and 7 series. The dirty little secret is that they are making VERY FEW cars with the Touring package--I've been told by a Lexus dealer that a grand total of 20 have been made for the entire US in the October and November allocations. Makes you wonder why they are making so few and why they aren't even making it an option on the standard wheelbase model.

Styling is a matter of taste; handling is their achilles heel. I'm shocked that they would do a complete redesign and not aggressively address this deficiency. I was leaning toward the 460L with the Touring Package, but given the sleight of hand going on with availability I've decided to go with the S550 instead. On the gizmo side, the Panorama roof and Night View Assist I'll be getting on the S550 trump the no-hands parallel parking on the 460 (which, by the way, requires more open space between the cars than you'll normally on a crowded street).

Toyota and Honda continue to make so much more profit than everyone else that eventually they'll engineer their way to functional and aesthetic dominance at the high end. But obviously not this go-round.


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XYZZXYZZ - 10/20/2006 4:56:15 AM
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"...they are making VERY FEW cars with the Touring package--I've been told by a Lexus dealer that a grand total of 20 have been made for the entire US in the October and November allocations."


imho, the demographic of buyers simply are NOT that interested in a STIFFER ride for just MARGINALLY (or NO) better "handling" at the speeds they tend to drive. if more buyers had opted for "touring" suspensions in the past, lexus would be building more.

as has been said, IF a buyer of this type of car was a driver with sporting intentions, they would get a 2nd (or 3rd, 4th...) car that was TRULY sporty. the LS was designed as a comfortable, cossetting car, not a boy racer car. and THAT is the reason people that buy them, love these cars.

i myself totally enjoy my toyota for what it is. and for sunny days when i really feel like DRIVING, i hop on my honda bike.




528i528i - 10/20/2006 3:34:09 AMView My AgentSpace
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this over the 7 and s any time...also the A8..

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Matthew1Matthew1 - 10/20/2006 3:40:21 AM
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I agree that many who purchase the LS will not drive in a sporty manner, but I do believe handling is a luxury and not a unnecessary extra which cars don't have to have.

Also, the S-Class handles admirably for its size and weight, and numerous magazines have been very impressed with its dynamic ability and composure. And saying the new S-Class is crude and poorly built is like saying the same thing about the new LS.

I think every single S-Class review I have read (and I have read a few, from reputable magazines) has called the big Merc incredibly refined and amazingly solid, with a air of real quality and craftsmanship.

To blatantly disagree shows either a ill-founded prejudice against Mercedes, or a rose-tinted view of Japanese cars.

A bit of both?


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BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 8:10:49 AM
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Well said, Matthew.

Ricemaster is just a Mercedes-hating fool. I should ignore him, but I love answering back...



M53RM53R - 10/22/2006 4:09:26 PMView My AgentSpace
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Every1 with a mind.

Can u plz ignore RICEMASTER? Its just stupid to reply to his *cough smart cough* comments.



Matthew1Matthew1 - 10/20/2006 4:31:04 AM
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I didn't trip.

But you seem to think the S-Class is a crude piece of junk, and that is the COMPLETE OPPOSITE to what everyone else in the industry has been saying.

That's my beef.

And I'm not seeing the connection between handling and crudeness.

Maybe you think 70kg of extra sound deadening makes a car fundamentally more refined, better built and thoroughly engineered?

For me, that extra 70kg of sound deadening adds weight which numbs handling and stops me from enjoying the refined howl of a big engine up front.

Where's the rule that states if you can hear the engine in a luxury saloon then it must be crude and poorly engineered?

Personally, the right amount of (non-intrusive) engine noise is something I want in a luxury saloon. Just because I want to know I brought a car, and not a glider.


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XYZZXYZZ - 10/20/2006 5:09:58 AM
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i think what rice meant by "crude" might've referred to reliability, not sound levels (altho' that mite be included).

just as you value "handling," for some "quality" and more so "RELIABILITY" is a BASIC requirement for a luxury car.

i'm surprised to what extent some lux owners PUT UP WITH in regard to quality and reliability issues. but then, i 'spose i HAVE been spoiled by toyota reliability.

(and with only slight, inexpensive modifications, my current toyota handles as well or better than any other car in its class, in stock form. it COULD growl more when the VVTi kicks in, but i DON'T want to sound like a boy racer.)



BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 8:18:30 AM
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"Now I haven't driven these new DOHC V8s from Merc, the press seem to say it's much improved over their 3valve predessesors in terms of refinement and power. All their past V8s sound like a much better version of detroit pushrod V8s. They shake the vehicle at idle, this is something I find very disturbing in a luxury sedan from such a big name highend make."
===============================

B U L L S H I T

I've gotten a ride in the last generation S500 and I didn't detect any of these supposed "shakes". Want more? I had the pleasure of driving the old 3-valve V8 in the SL500 and again, no "shakes". Cut the bullshit, Ricemaster.

With your constant anti-Mercedes statements, I am surprised people believe you. You're full of shit. STFU already.


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AUDBMLEXMRCAUDBMLEXMRC - 10/20/2006 5:51:49 AM
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BMW530i
IS IT YOUR COMMENTS OR EDMUNDS CAR TESTER? BECAUSE I DON'T FIND IT IN EDMUNDS SITE.COULD YOU PUT THE LINK THERE?


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BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 7:59:04 AM
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I got this of a car forum and the poster didn't provide a link. I myself went to Edmunds but couldn't find it either.


kart1kart1 - 10/20/2006 11:04:49 AM
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Here is the link ladies and gentlemen:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=117189



BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 8:36:07 AM
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Will, SOME PEOPLE in this class do look for a bit of sport. It's not many, but there are some. And these people are simply better served with cars like the BMW 7-Series, MB S-Class, Jaguar XJ and the Audi A8. The LS handling might be good, but let's be HONEST here, the German brands do have the sportier drive and the overall better handling.

Best of all, in cars like the A8 or S-Class, you can still drive sporty while enjoying a high degree of comfort and BALANCE. The LS is simply too biased towards comfort, and not sport to be that well-balanced.

AND THIS ISN'T A RANT AGAINST LEXUS FOR CHRIST'S SAKE...


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BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 9:17:37 AM
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Did you read my post, Will?

I said SOME PEOPLE in this class do care about handling and sport, and those people are certainly NOT Lexus LS buyers.

Where do I flame the LS? Where!?


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BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 9:28:32 AM
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I clearly stated in my post that SOME (SOME SOME SOME SOME SOME...)buyers of the BMW 7-Series, S-Class etc. CARE (CARE CARE CARE...) about handling qualities. And if we're honest here, both the S-Class, 7-Series, A8 and XJ are the better handlers when compared to the LS.

Why do I always get the feeling that you're trying to pick my posts apart looking for a statement that looks like I am bashing Lexus? Huh? I have no problems admitting that the Lexus LS460 will be more comfortable than the BMW 7-Series for example. See? I said it and I don't feel like my pride or penis size is insulted. Geez...


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BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 9:46:41 AM
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Then the issue is settled. It's no secret that the majority of LS buyers aren't the sporty types. The same applies to buyers of the German rivals, but in this case, there are some buyers who do care about it. That's one of the selling points of the BMW 7-Series for instance: handling. ;)

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BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 9:58:25 AM
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I was trying to convince people that the German brands offer more sport?

Why should I convince people, it is a known FACT. I was simply stating the obvious.

Here we go again...


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S4cabriofoxS4cabriofox - 10/21/2006 12:12:59 AM
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Yes, Will, the XJ8 is a fabulous drive (answering your questionability of Jaguar). I drove one very recently, and not only did it have great handling and almost zero dive because of the CATS suspension (and amazing rigidity and agility because of the aluminum body), but the interior was next to flawless.

I don't see why anyone would need anything more than 300hp- and if they did, get the XJR. Both are huge bargains.

The XJ8 is a pretty complete car, too. It's just a question of taste. If you prefer the elegant, classic, chic look that it carries (with much distinction, I may add), then I highly recommend it. It offers a beautifully made, easy-to-use interior, great power, fabulous road manners, nimble handling, and, it's the most reliable British car on the market. It's actually the second most reliable in class, according to your beloved JD Power-- only behind the LS! And I highy doubt that the new one will be as reliable as the last one because of its new "innovative" electronics.


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S4cabriofoxS4cabriofox - 10/22/2006 2:48:34 PM
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Well, you must. It's highly underrated.

We'll be getting a Brtish Racing Green XJ8 in January.


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Agent63Agent63 - 10/20/2006 9:03:17 AMView My AgentSpace
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Like I said styling is subjective and it is all about marketing. Word of mouth is what this topic here is about. What you've heard people say and taking it as the final verdict. Go out to a dealership and test drive a car and be the judge of it yourselves.

I've driven and rode in many Toyota's and Lexus'. They have a degree of luxury and comfort. However, as much it being luxurious and comfort, it simply does not have the feel of a high end German saloon. I don't know what it is. Lexus is awesome and so are the Germans and other European brands respectively.

Maybe it's just my point of view. Who knows and who cares. Whether its luxury buyers or luxury sport buyers, in the end they all basically drive it the same. No S-class, A8, 7 series, or LS owner will ever bring it to a track nor will they ever bring it to a track to see if their vehicle will have that 'sportyness". They will be too busy having lunch, coffee, or dinner with friends or business associates.

It's only us that ramble on and on about this neverending debate on which manufacturers superior (especially Lexus vs the world of luxury saloons LOL).Like i've said time and time again, Luxury is only luxury in the eye of the beholder. Luxury to one isn't luxury to another. Like-wise with sportyness. All subjective !!!!

Lexus are awesome, BMW's are awesome, Mercedes are awesome, Audi's are awesome!. Enjoy what the designers have given us to debate about!. It's obviously what they wanted. They wanted a BUZZZZZZZZZZ about their work! and they laugh at us while eating morning breakfast together at a designated car designers lounge haha.


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dustydusty - 10/20/2006 10:17:52 AM
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Been laughing myself silly at this whole thread. Lexus has obviously found a winning niche for the LS. There must be a lot of pretty successful conservative folks who want a really well-built understated luxury car and don't want to hear the howl of a big engine as they drive down the road in safety and comfort.

As some of us have grown up, we have left our hotrods behind.


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CorsisCorsis - 10/20/2006 11:00:35 AM
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WOW. This Lexus vs. BMW/MB/Audi is starting to remind me of the good old GM Vs. Ford VS Mopar muscle car wars.

Personally, i love cars from Lexus and the Germans. If i had to chose one company i really couldnt. They all have there strengths and weaknesses. BMW/MB are great performing cars, and for all purposes are arguably the top car manufacturers out there. There is a reason for that, time and experience. You have to realize Lexus is still a baby in terms of producing cars along these lines. Up until two years ago Lexus were just Toyotas with different badges. These cars Lexus are releasing now are their first cars that were designed on there own. Consider the IS series is the first truly designed entry level sedan for Lexus and how well its being reviewed in comparison to the 3 series is astonishing. Its certainly not better, but consider the experience, BMW has been perfecting their cars for years, and know where their going 100% where as Lexus is just starting to play with the big boys. I think with time Lexus will be able to win some of these battles. And in the end, we, the car drivers/enthusiasts are the ones who win.



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luvmybmrluvmybmr - 10/20/2006 11:03:24 AM
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lets have an honest Poll,

how many of you have actually driven the LS, S, and 7?


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BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 11:20:31 AM
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I've driven the 7-Series and last generation S-Class. That's it.

You want someone who's driven them all? Ask Ricemaster. He's driven all of these cars - in his messed-up mind...



luvmybmrluvmybmr - 10/20/2006 11:57:16 AM
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ive driven the current model of all three cars.

handling wise - LS is on par with BMW

interior wise - MB is really nice in person. (but a little confusing)

looks wise - its hard to judge






lexusis350lexusis350 - 10/20/2006 4:56:50 PM
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I own an LS 430 and have driven the new S-Class as a dest drive. I will be honest here, the S-Class was nicer than I thought it would be, in some areas, nicer than the LS, but in the long run, the LS is more homey and comfortable to be in. And by comfortable, I mean comfortable environment. The S-Class makes you feel that you have to be on your toes the whole time when there isn't really a good reason to be.


adoptgreyhoundsadoptgreyhounds - 10/20/2006 5:29:43 PM
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All 3 everyday of everyweek. If I was buying one of these it would be the LS460, The 7 is a fantastic car and does drive better when you can cut loose, the S550/500 I just really don't care for (i'm just not a MB guy), The LS is just better for what it's made for crusing and taking clients to lunch. It's just easy to use, and don't think you'll find better service anywhere.


I95SPEEDINGTICKETSI95SPEEDINGTICKETS - 10/20/2006 5:48:54 PM
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ME

S 55 AMG
745 Sport & 760 IL
LS 430



kart1kart1 - 10/20/2006 11:05:21 AM
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Here is the link ladies and gentlemen:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=117189


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rockerrocker - 10/20/2006 11:12:27 AM
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I view Lexus as the "new" Buick. Mostly old white people with blue hair drive them where I live.

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BMW530iBMW530i - 10/20/2006 11:19:29 AM
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