Lexus Exec says "short shopping list and we're not on it"

speedmaster submitted on 04/20/2007 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 12:05 AM
from: www.autospies.com

Tags: Lexus

Lexus

Lexus Exec says "short shopping list and we're not on it"

Lexus execs admit that the LS460 cannot compete with the big boys.
In Edmund's Full Test of the LS 600h l, the article quotes:

"These people have a very short shopping list and we're not on it" is the way one Lexus executive put it. "The sedans they buy are the 12-cylinder Mercedes S600, BMW 760Li and Audi A8."

Hence, Lexus had to come up with something new -- the LS 600h L

Full article:
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTests/articleId=120486?tid=edmunds.il.home.photopanel..1

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chewy - 4/20/2007 12:56:13 AMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

Read this for more about the article.

http://www.autospies.com/news/2008-Lexus-LS-600hL-Hybrid-Slower-and-Uses-More-Fuel-than-Lexus-LS-460-14420/

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no1listensanyway - 4/20/2007 1:39:38 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Ouch, I dont know how the Lexus fanboys are going to defend this one.

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kart1 - 4/20/2007 2:01:13 AM

+5 Boost

What is there to defend. Are you just looking for a flame war. Of course there will be one since this is a Lexus article. The statement is quite clear that Lexus isn't considered the same as the higher end luxury models, so Lexus is trying to correct the lack of products in that category.

Again I suppose your just looking for a flame war, no?

raydata - 4/20/2007 2:47:50 AM

+6 Boost

I wouldn't call me a "Lexus fanboy" but I have owned a few. And I'm slated to buy a LS 600hL. This is disappointing performance all around. So I hope it is wrong. I believe the gas mileage specs would qualify it as a gas guzzler (under the new EPA ratings). You just can't be green/Hybrid and get penalized as a gas guzzler! But I'll wait and see. For sure, it appears that the one I would purchase would have to have the "Active Stabilization" system option.

enthusiastx11 - 4/20/2007 3:04:19 AM

+1 Boost

raydata:

you're right about the gas guzzler issue. anything with combined EPA under 22.5 gets hit. the car is turning out to be the height of hypocrisy.

i'm assuming you didn't have to put a non-refundable deposit, so you can still get out. if you love the car, buy a base LS460 and then buy a prius for your daily commute with the money leftover.

1995e34 - 4/20/2007 12:46:03 PM

+3 Boost

owning an ls460, and commuting in a prius?

no1listensanyway - 4/20/2007 2:13:59 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

Hey Kart, a flame war is going to happen either way. I am just very suprised at the poor review the LS recieved. If you recall the discussions about the LS600 you would know note that the Lexus fanboys felt that the LS was going to be the prohpet of all new vehicles. Well it came up short in many aspects, thats all I am pointing out.

raschitakochangwenya - 4/20/2007 5:32:47 PM

-1 Boost

is this the final product or its a preproduction version ,i am just curious

Dan8288 - 4/20/2007 1:53:02 AM

+2 Boost

So basically, the list of superpowered cars, V12s like the S600, 760Li, and the W12 A8, are something above the regular V8s from Benz, BMW, and Audi. Up till now the LS has been a regular V8, until the LS 600h L.

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S4cabriofoxone - 4/20/2007 10:46:30 AMView My AgentSpace

+8 Boost

But there's still no reason to buy it. With the twelve-cylinder S600/760/A8 W12, you get significantly more power, and features that are exclusive to only those models. On the other hand, with the hybrid LS, that's all you get: a badge. It doesn't offer anything the LS460 doesn't. It's no faster than the "normal" LS, either. And, most embarrassing of all: the mileage isn't any better. Bravo, Lexus, for screwing this up major.

david999 - 4/21/2007 9:17:24 AM

+2 Boost

As already pointed out:

LS600hL has LS460L doen't

1. world's first LED headlights
2. full leather stitched panel,dash
3. AWD
4. hybrid
5. Pre-collision system with driver monitor system
6. Front and rear active stabilizers
...

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chewy - 4/20/2007 2:34:04 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

As the article proves. The LS 600hl is nothing but a farce. Only a hybrid badge. Much slower than the cometing V12. Actually slower than the LS460, and gets worse fuel economy than the LS460.

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chewy - 4/20/2007 2:34:57 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

competing V12s

TruenoAE86 - 4/20/2007 2:44:02 AM

+7 Boost

People that buy V12 are unlikely the environmentally friendly crowd. This LS hybrid is just the wrong product for the wrong crowd. I totally agree with the "Hard to Justify" section of the article. I would much rather stick with a regular LS if I were to buy a LS.

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Lexus - 4/20/2007 2:44:34 AM

-9 Boost

At least it still had better fuel economy than the BMW 7 Series, MB S-class, and the Audi A8.

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chewy - 4/20/2007 2:55:18 AMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

Nope, 20/22 is not any better than 18/25 as that is what the A8 has. And it isn't any quicker most likely.

enthusiastx11 - 4/20/2007 2:56:34 AM

+1 Boost

lol. and they're making some MAJOR compromises in horsepower, size, acceleration, styling and prestige for....a few MPG. that trade-off makes no sense.

atomicbri - 4/20/2007 6:58:10 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Wealthy people could care less what they spend at the pump.

Agent63 - 4/20/2007 8:14:22 AMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

It is over hyped and with that mileage difference it is over priced. Its no longer than the 460L so why on earth get the hybrid? for a little better emissions, the different front lights, and the extra weight, this would increase the price to 111,000 or so? it's still cheaper than the S550 starting.

enthusiastx11 - 4/20/2007 2:54:47 AM

+3 Boost

wow. this is embarrassing.

only 2mpg more and slower than its much cheaper sibling the LS460L. and not even in the same ballpark as the S600 in terms of power or acceleration. AND it's 344 pounds heavier than the V12 S600 resulting in handling even less nimble than the LS460.

help me out here....so why would someone buy this car for $111,000 when they could get a fully equipped, faster LS460 for $72,000 ($61,000 base plus the top option package)?

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chewy - 4/20/2007 2:56:43 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

the hybrid badge, you know everyone wants to be a greenie hypocrite.

enthusiastx11 - 4/20/2007 3:00:26 AM

+1 Boost

and that 2mpg advantage is only in the city.
on the highway the base LS460 gets 5mpg MORE than the LS600 hybrid.
what a joke.

atomicbri - 4/20/2007 7:14:27 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

This is embarrassing! I surely thought the numbers would have been better like in all their other hybrids...it's definately not worth it.

S4cabriofoxone - 4/20/2007 10:37:32 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

It weighs almost as much as a Range Rover Sport! LOL!

no1listensanyway - 4/20/2007 2:15:42 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

That trunk is so tiny!

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david999 - 4/21/2007 9:14:21 AM

+2 Boost

I guess the same logic one uses when they pay a $55,000 difference between an S550 and S600

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rom64 - 4/20/2007 3:30:40 AM

+1 Boost

I've said this before. The LS600h = The new VW Phaeton.

The hybrid badge is just a fad. This car's product impact won't last long after the first initial months. Eventually, it will wither out of public view.

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david999 - 4/21/2007 9:19:12 AM

+1 Boost

Keep dreaming

rom64 - 4/20/2007 3:31:49 AM

+2 Boost

Overpriced and Over-hyped

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Dan8288 - 4/20/2007 4:18:51 AM

+5 Boost

Edmunds compared the 2008 LS hybrid EPA fuel economy ratings with the 2007 LS 460 L ratings, done in 2006. The scales have changed, and the comparison they're making in mpg is likely inaccurate.

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atomicbri - 4/20/2007 7:10:28 AMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

I looked at Lexus' site and it quotes the LS 460 to get 19 city 27 highway! So that is not old facts they are using. It's Lexus' websites.

enthusiastx11 - 4/20/2007 11:53:40 AM

-1 Boost

those 19/27 EPA numbers are for the 2007 or 2008 LS460? the numbers change for the '08 model year.

nvme - 4/20/2007 8:17:05 PM

-1 Boost

no the new testing method takes effect in 2008 for 2009 model year...

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Dan8288 - 4/20/2007 4:20:11 AM

+3 Boost

The LS 600h L is also not a gas guzzler, unlike its V12 competitors.

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S4cabriofoxone - 4/20/2007 10:41:00 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Things to consider before buying an LS hybrid:

It's $33,000 more than the LS460L.

Every feature available on it is available on the LS460L.

It's $33,000 more than the LS460L.

It gets the same (and in some cases, worse) mileage as the LS460L.

It's $33,000 more than the LS460L.

It's no quicker than the LS460L.

It's $33,000 more htan the LS460L.

answer - 4/21/2007 7:49:16 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Really? Wow!!!!!!

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answer - 4/21/2007 7:49:36 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Really? Wow!!!!!!

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Anthony - 4/22/2007 1:56:42 AM

+1 Boost

It is not $33,000 more.

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S4cabriofoxone - 4/22/2007 11:33:36 AMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

LS460L: $71K

LS600hL: $104K

Oh, really?

Will_ - 4/22/2007 4:47:51 PM

+1 Boost

Where have you seen a BASE MODEL LS460L being sold at MSRP? Remember the first comparison test between all the big luxury sedans? The tester LS460L topped out at $93K.

Even so, the jump from the BASE price of the S550 to the BASE price of the S600 is what?

S4cabriofoxone - 4/23/2007 8:58:49 PMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

And, after correcting me on MY analysis, you're using the same incorrect base on S550 vs. S600? The S600 is standard with EVERY ONE of the S550's options- I'm pretty sure the only options are designo and an iPod adapter. If you load up an LS600hL, I wouldn't be surprised if it goes above $130K; that leaves the "value factor" (if you can call it "value") invalid, because there wouldn't be much of a gap between the $142K S600 and $130-140K LS600hL.

atomicbri - 4/20/2007 7:05:09 AMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

Wow kind of quiet on here from Lexus fanboys.....kind of hard to say it's the best when it obviously seems worse than it's cheaper brother the LS 460L PLUS if I have wealth, why do I care how many mpg he thing gets....really I don't see a huge difference like you do when you compare Prius with whatever. Look at how the RX-Hybrid gets better than the regualer one. The numbers to me are not there to justify it. Basically if I were shopping for an LS, I would buy the V8 non hybrid model for sure. Besides if I had weatlh, the other 3 cars the Lexus guy mentioned would more than likely be in my parking garage. My boss has WEALTH and I asked him.... He said why would he buy a fancy Toyota? I said it self parks and all. He laughed and said,"Hell half the time my driver drives, I could give a sh*t if it parks itself or not" So I asked what he would buy, he said, "What I have now, an Audi A8".

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bulldogz - 4/20/2007 9:16:21 AM

-2 Boost

ok, but many could then argue the A8 is just a fancy VW, since they are the parent company and all of the cars have similiar styling cues, just compare to the Phaeton for example.

S4cabriofoxone - 4/20/2007 10:43:06 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

atomicbri doesn't think the LS is a fancy Toyota- his BOSS does.

His BOSS obviously doesn't think the A8 is a "fancy VW."

Nor do I. Neither are "fancy" or "re-badged" versions of their parent companies.

speedmaster - 4/20/2007 11:43:37 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Foor $111K, I agree, there won't be too many takers.
The prius is more than enough of a fashion statement to celeberities and CEOs looking to make a green statement.

For $111K, I know where my money would go --- AM Vantage.

Also, buyers in this category do not care about gas prices nor do they care about reliability.

Rupert - 4/20/2007 8:23:17 AMView My AgentSpace

+7 Boost

What a ridiculous car. Why buy it? Slower, less economical, even smaller boot and 887 pounds HEAVIER than a regular 460L...this car seems completely pointless.

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Rupert - 4/20/2007 8:35:01 AMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

It's quite disappointing really, this car could have been really different and special...

305vice - 4/20/2007 9:20:48 AM

+4 Boost

Lexus has to step up its game. They should of followed the crowd, but instead wasted its time by doing things their way. I hope Lexus would learn from this experience and improve ten fold. I'm glad Lexus made this mistake, at least now they would have look at performance seriously for none F-series cars.

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autopro - 4/20/2007 9:43:43 AMView My AgentSpace

-7 Boost

I drove the 600h wednesday its a rocket. Mid range power was the best,but it still riped from a dead stop. It was very quiet smooth and handled very well for a large car that is 800 lbs heaver than the 460. The quality of materials if first rate.

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atomicbri - 4/20/2007 9:53:12 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

How did you drive it? Will not be available at any dealership until June....

WeAreMad - 4/20/2007 10:55:00 AM

+7 Boost

LS600H = one step forward, two steps back.

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BMW4me4ever - 4/20/2007 11:07:39 AMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

way to go Lexus. So where are all the Lexus fanboys now that were just saying a few weeks ago that Lexus compares to the Rolls & Bentley's? HAha ... Who in their right mind is going to pay $100k + for a V8 Hybrid? Only people I can think of are the same people that bought the VW Phaeton ... LMAO ...

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enthusiastx11 - 4/20/2007 11:59:26 AM

+1 Boost

it's not "sold-out." they didn't take non-refundable deposits. lexus just has a list of interested people who signed up without knowing the price or any of the information we just learned about the car.

i'm guessing many will drop off that list once they find out about the poor performance, disappointing MPG and shocking price tag for a car that does almost nothing better (and some things worse) than it's $61,000 and $71,000 siblings.

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david999 - 4/21/2007 9:28:11 AM

+1 Boost

Hybrid technology that works, and overall outstanding reliability. Where is Mercedes rated?. Who else makes a luxury hybrid as good as Lexus?
Stop trying to justify your ignorance of what Luxury car buyers want.

S4cabriofoxone - 4/22/2007 11:42:16 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

You don't seem to understand.

Let me spell it out for you:

R E L I A B I L I T Y I S N O T T H E O N L Y R E A S O N P E O P L E B U Y L U X U R Y C A R S!

Is that really your only defense? "RELIABILITY?!" Is that just a fallback? And how do you know this car will be reliable? We don't even know how reliable the LS460 is yet! Reputations mean nothing... with all the new tech in these cars, it could've gone wrong. You can never just assume.

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david999 - 4/22/2007 1:37:19 PM

+1 Boost

Keep believing that reliability is nothing to buyers. What a dope.

S4cabriofoxone - 4/23/2007 9:01:15 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Where did I say that in my post?

"R E L I A B I L I T Y I S N O T T H E O N L Y R E A S O N P E O P L E B U Y L U X U R Y C A R S!"

I said it's not the ONLY reason. You seem to believe that people buy Lexus vehicles only for their reliability and "superior quality." Well, first of all, esp. in this class, most owners have chauffers to take their cars to the shop for them anyway. Secondly, there's no such thing as a car with "inferior quality" at this pricepoint. A8L W12, S600, and 760Li all have stunning interiors.

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david999 - 4/23/2007 11:28:16 PM

0 Boost

"most owners have chauffers"

If you agree with this statement, than why all the ranting about performance numbers? The LS is a high-end luxury vehicle that pampers its occupants.
It does it just as well as any other car in this class. However, too many people here want to try and diminish what Lexus has accomplished because of one review on a pre-test automobile.

speedmaster - 4/20/2007 11:53:54 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

"This car is already sold out so this article and thread is pointless."

How is it pointless when an Lexus "executive" admits that Lexus is not up to snuff. This contradicts all the hyping of rabid fanboys. Reality is, people who shop this list want something more that the LS460 couldn't provide.

Moreover, the car gets worst performance than its cheaper sibling. Heavier 800Lbs, lower mpg for highway, lack of trunk space.

The article was well written despite what feelings you have about lexus.

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david999 - 4/21/2007 9:39:57 AM

+2 Boost

The executive was refering to V12 class automobiles, not the base models.

WeAreMad - 4/20/2007 1:00:19 PM

+1 Boost

the ls600h deserves the razzie for automobiles.

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Willis - 4/20/2007 1:13:05 PM

+2 Boost

This is really embarassing for Lexus, I agree. The LS600h seems to perform poorer than the LS460 and the trunk space and load capacity are pathetic. The standard LS460 has a ridiculously low load capacity ratings, this, this is even worse.

And for the money, I can assume that buyers will care more about prestige than a $100k Lexus. The folks who shop for an S600 or 760Li are different than the folks who shop for an S550 or 750i etc., generally.

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david999 - 4/20/2007 1:19:07 PM

-1 Boost

"In a class where exclusivity counts, the $104,715 hybrid LS should rattle a few cages. Only 2,000 will be built this year for sale in the United States, and we have little doubt each will be sold quickly"

-NAS World Car of the Year Winner

Also note that Edmunds used a pre-production test vehicle.

WeAreMad - 4/20/2007 2:03:37 PM

+1 Boost

uuhh, david, that was the ls460, which, apperantly, is a lot better than the ls600h. you're trying to make a loser(ls600h) into a winner (ls460).

enthusiastx11 - 4/20/2007 7:56:32 PM

+1 Boost

why are you struggling to justify a car that's slower, more expensive, uses more gas and looks just like it's less expensive siblings. even lexus can make mistakes. and this one takes the cake.

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david999 - 4/21/2007 9:41:29 AM

+1 Boost

Was refering to LS vehicles in general.

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markusck - 4/20/2007 1:17:35 PM

+3 Boost

This is the problem with the Lexus brand, the company is being run by a very forceful marketing group who focus on pairing lexus with Gucci or Cartier, latching onto the hybrid/green movement (and tarnishing the corporate image by this fiasco), and placing the name in the right circles, basically buying their way into the group instead of earning it the hard way...well here is the result...

I bet you that there were more than a few Toyota/Lexus engineers sitting at a table some time ago saying "guys this is not going to turn out well as the engineering just won't justify your claims". But nobody listened..the marketing machine was on a roll. I hope the IS-F is not marching down a similar path with the recent article pushing this to the twenty-something tuner crowd or younger...that will hurt the brand, not that the car will be a slacker, it just not what a premium brand is about.

Its time Lexus moved out of the Toyota house, set up shop on their own, develop their own design philosphy and let the engineers have some say in whats important in auto design, performance and passion (magic!) for what they want which is a premium auto brand.

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SupraNeverBack - 4/20/2007 1:43:22 PM

+4 Boost

I guess Lexus goals of the LS600h project are:

1. implant hybrid drive into LS600h
(to sell first ever $100K Lexus)
2. develop AWD for regular LS.
3. develop 5.0L v8 for mid-cycle LS500 update.
...

SupraNeverBack - 4/20/2007 1:23:42 PM

0 Boost

Calm down, people. The review is on a pre-production LS600hL, just like the C&D one on a pre-production LS460L. I believe the production car will not weight that much and run significantly faster and have combined FE greater than 23mpg by 2008 EPA rules. If not then I will be very very disappointed. Also I want to see the midrange acceleration performance figures.

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enthusiastx11 - 4/20/2007 7:57:49 PM

0 Boost

it's a real production car. lexus is too pr/marketing savvy to allow a full test drive on a car that wasn't the best it can possibly be.

nvme - 4/20/2007 8:23:27 PM

0 Boost

can you explain to me how a pre- prod car weighs more than a series production one?!!
My guees is that you're trying too hard to find excuses or explainations, after your bubble has burst,...

david999 - 4/21/2007 9:34:14 AM

+1 Boost

it's a pre-production test car.

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S4cabriofoxone - 4/22/2007 11:44:12 AMView My AgentSpace

-1 Boost

EXCUSES, EXCUSES.

Denali - 4/20/2007 1:39:20 PM

+1 Boost

that is a really bad hit for lexus, i really had high hopes for this car, they better pray those numnbers are not accurate, if so i smell a flop/recalls and bad rep...SMH

i rarly like to post stuff on silly comments but this clown post some funny s@#!: saying u get the same options in 600h as an LS460L, but on other MB/BMW/Audi they get exclusive on there v12, lol is u stupid or u like talking out your azz, what u get on S600 different on s550 not chrome headlamps, maybe its designo paint or multispoke wheels lol ask your wife for help on this one, "since yall went car shopping" remember any dealer can make any car exclusive from factory

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SupraNeverBack - 4/20/2007 1:51:56 PM

-3 Boost

LS600hL has LS460L doen't

1. world's first LED headlights
2. full leather stitched panel,dash
3. AWD
4. hybrid
5. Pre-collision system with driver monitor system
6. Front and rear active stabilizers
...

S4cabriofoxone - 4/21/2007 1:57:55 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Things you can get on an A8L W12, that you can't on the 4.2:

Super-premium leather with contrasting piping
Four-seat package
Rear seat entertainment system
Exclusive wheels
LED daytime running lights
Power rear seats
Custom wood, leather, piping, headliner, and dashboard colors- customer's specifications
Rear seat MMI controller
...and of course, a 450hp 6.0L W12 engine

Things an S600 has, but an S550 doesn't:

Exclusive wheels
Custom interior colors (à la A8L)
Rear seat entertainment system
Leather dash/doors
Alcantara headliner
...and of course, a 510hp V12.

I forgot what the 760 has that the 750 doesn't, but it's just as substantial as what the two above have.

david999 - 4/21/2007 9:36:22 AM

+1 Boost

This justifies a $55,000 price difference between an S550 and S600 ?

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answer - 4/21/2007 8:13:48 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

That could possibly be the most inaccurate thing you have ever posted.

Way to go.

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S4cabriofoxone - 4/22/2007 11:35:51 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

The engine alone. Yes.

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Will_ - 4/20/2007 1:53:27 PM

-1 Boost

Yes.

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david999 - 4/20/2007 1:53:42 PM

0 Boost

Well said KaiserSoze. No other Luxury maker has a working all-wheel drive hybrid out there. The technology involved has been difficult for others to duplicate, let alone function with reliability.

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markusck - 4/20/2007 2:16:08 PM

-1 Boost

Wait, so weight has NO bearing on the energy required to move it? I think you need to explain how that makes sense. So if the car were half the weight no improvement? Any additional weight is going to negatively affect peformance.

Nobody is saying the hybrid system doesnt work, they are saying the benefits are marginal at best. With or without an all wheel drive system, its just not giving back enough to j

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