Lexus Exec says "short shopping list and we're not on it"

Read this for more about the article.

http://www.autospies.com/news/2008-Lexus-LS-600hL-Hybrid-Slower-and-Uses-More-Fuel-than-Lexus-LS-460-14420/

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 12:56:13 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Ouch, I dont know how the Lexus fanboys are going to defend this one.

— no1listensanyway (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 1:39:38 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

So basically, the list of superpowered cars, V12s like the S600, 760Li, and the W12 A8, are something above the regular V8s from Benz, BMW, and Audi. Up till now the LS has been a regular V8, until the LS 600h L.

— Dan8288 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 1:53:02 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

As already pointed out:

LS600hL has LS460L doen't

1. world's first LED headlights
2. full leather stitched panel,dash
3. AWD
4. hybrid
5. Pre-collision system with driver monitor system
6. Front and rear active stabilizers
...

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 9:17:24 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

As the article proves. The LS 600hl is nothing but a farce. Only a hybrid badge. Much slower than the cometing V12. Actually slower than the LS460, and gets worse fuel economy than the LS460.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 2:34:04 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

People that buy V12 are unlikely the environmentally friendly crowd. This LS hybrid is just the wrong product for the wrong crowd. I totally agree with the "Hard to Justify" section of the article. I would much rather stick with a regular LS if I were to buy a LS.

— TruenoAE86 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 2:44:02 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

At least it still had better fuel economy than the BMW 7 Series, MB S-class, and the Audi A8.

— Lexus (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 2:44:34 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -9   

wow. this is embarrassing.

only 2mpg more and slower than its much cheaper sibling the LS460L. and not even in the same ballpark as the S600 in terms of power or acceleration. AND it's 344 pounds heavier than the V12 S600 resulting in handling even less nimble than the LS460.

help me out here....so why would someone buy this car for $111,000 when they could get a fully equipped, faster LS460 for $72,000 ($61,000 base plus the top option package)?

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 2:54:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

That trunk is so tiny!

— no1listensanyway (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 2:15:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

I guess the same logic one uses when they pay a $55,000 difference between an S550 and S600

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 9:14:21 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

I've said this before. The LS600h = The new VW Phaeton.

The hybrid badge is just a fad. This car's product impact won't last long after the first initial months. Eventually, it will wither out of public view.

— rom64 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 3:30:40 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Overpriced and Over-hyped

— rom64 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 3:31:49 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Edmunds compared the 2008 LS hybrid EPA fuel economy ratings with the 2007 LS 460 L ratings, done in 2006. The scales have changed, and the comparison they're making in mpg is likely inaccurate.

— Dan8288 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 4:18:51 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

no the new testing method takes effect in 2008 for 2009 model year...

— nvme (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 8:17:05 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

The LS 600h L is also not a gas guzzler, unlike its V12 competitors.

— Dan8288 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 4:20:11 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Really? Wow!!!!!!

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 7:49:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Really? Wow!!!!!!

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 7:49:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

It is not $33,000 more.

— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 1:56:42 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Wow kind of quiet on here from Lexus fanboys.....kind of hard to say it's the best when it obviously seems worse than it's cheaper brother the LS 460L PLUS if I have wealth, why do I care how many mpg he thing gets....really I don't see a huge difference like you do when you compare Prius with whatever. Look at how the RX-Hybrid gets better than the regualer one. The numbers to me are not there to justify it. Basically if I were shopping for an LS, I would buy the V8 non hybrid model for sure. Besides if I had weatlh, the other 3 cars the Lexus guy mentioned would more than likely be in my parking garage. My boss has WEALTH and I asked him.... He said why would he buy a fancy Toyota? I said it self parks and all. He laughed and said,"Hell half the time my driver drives, I could give a sh*t if it parks itself or not" So I asked what he would buy, he said, "What I have now, an Audi A8".

— atomicbri (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 7:05:09 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

What a ridiculous car. Why buy it? Slower, less economical, even smaller boot and 887 pounds HEAVIER than a regular 460L...this car seems completely pointless.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 8:23:17 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

Lexus has to step up its game. They should of followed the crowd, but instead wasted its time by doing things their way. I hope Lexus would learn from this experience and improve ten fold. I'm glad Lexus made this mistake, at least now they would have look at performance seriously for none F-series cars.

— 305vice (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 9:20:48 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

I drove the 600h wednesday its a rocket. Mid range power was the best,but it still riped from a dead stop. It was very quiet smooth and handled very well for a large car that is 800 lbs heaver than the 460. The quality of materials if first rate.

— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 9:43:43 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -7   

LS600H = one step forward, two steps back.

— WeAreMad (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 10:55:00 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

way to go Lexus. So where are all the Lexus fanboys now that were just saying a few weeks ago that Lexus compares to the Rolls & Bentley's? HAha ... Who in their right mind is going to pay $100k + for a V8 Hybrid? Only people I can think of are the same people that bought the VW Phaeton ... LMAO ...

— BMW4me4ever (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 11:07:39 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

it's not "sold-out." they didn't take non-refundable deposits. lexus just has a list of interested people who signed up without knowing the price or any of the information we just learned about the car.

i'm guessing many will drop off that list once they find out about the poor performance, disappointing MPG and shocking price tag for a car that does almost nothing better (and some things worse) than it's $61,000 and $71,000 siblings.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 11:59:26 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

You don't seem to understand.

Let me spell it out for you:

R E L I A B I L I T Y I S N O T T H E O N L Y R E A S O N P E O P L E B U Y L U X U R Y C A R S!

Is that really your only defense? "RELIABILITY?!" Is that just a fallback? And how do you know this car will be reliable? We don't even know how reliable the LS460 is yet! Reputations mean nothing... with all the new tech in these cars, it could've gone wrong. You can never just assume.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 11:42:16 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Where did I say that in my post?

"R E L I A B I L I T Y I S N O T T H E O N L Y R E A S O N P E O P L E B U Y L U X U R Y C A R S!"

I said it's not the ONLY reason. You seem to believe that people buy Lexus vehicles only for their reliability and "superior quality." Well, first of all, esp. in this class, most owners have chauffers to take their cars to the shop for them anyway. Secondly, there's no such thing as a car with "inferior quality" at this pricepoint. A8L W12, S600, and 760Li all have stunning interiors.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 9:01:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

"This car is already sold out so this article and thread is pointless."

How is it pointless when an Lexus "executive" admits that Lexus is not up to snuff. This contradicts all the hyping of rabid fanboys. Reality is, people who shop this list want something more that the LS460 couldn't provide.

Moreover, the car gets worst performance than its cheaper sibling. Heavier 800Lbs, lower mpg for highway, lack of trunk space.

The article was well written despite what feelings you have about lexus.

— speedmaster (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 11:53:54 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

the ls600h deserves the razzie for automobiles.

— WeAreMad (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 1:00:19 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

This is really embarassing for Lexus, I agree. The LS600h seems to perform poorer than the LS460 and the trunk space and load capacity are pathetic. The standard LS460 has a ridiculously low load capacity ratings, this, this is even worse.

And for the money, I can assume that buyers will care more about prestige than a $100k Lexus. The folks who shop for an S600 or 760Li are different than the folks who shop for an S550 or 750i etc., generally.

— Willis (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 1:13:05 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

why are you struggling to justify a car that's slower, more expensive, uses more gas and looks just like it's less expensive siblings. even lexus can make mistakes. and this one takes the cake.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 7:56:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Was refering to LS vehicles in general.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 9:41:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

This is the problem with the Lexus brand, the company is being run by a very forceful marketing group who focus on pairing lexus with Gucci or Cartier, latching onto the hybrid/green movement (and tarnishing the corporate image by this fiasco), and placing the name in the right circles, basically buying their way into the group instead of earning it the hard way...well here is the result...

I bet you that there were more than a few Toyota/Lexus engineers sitting at a table some time ago saying "guys this is not going to turn out well as the engineering just won't justify your claims". But nobody listened..the marketing machine was on a roll. I hope the IS-F is not marching down a similar path with the recent article pushing this to the twenty-something tuner crowd or younger...that will hurt the brand, not that the car will be a slacker, it just not what a premium brand is about.

Its time Lexus moved out of the Toyota house, set up shop on their own, develop their own design philosphy and let the engineers have some say in whats important in auto design, performance and passion (magic!) for what they want which is a premium auto brand.

— markusck (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 1:17:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Calm down, people. The review is on a pre-production LS600hL, just like the C&D one on a pre-production LS460L. I believe the production car will not weight that much and run significantly faster and have combined FE greater than 23mpg by 2008 EPA rules. If not then I will be very very disappointed. Also I want to see the midrange acceleration performance figures.

— SupraNeverBack (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 1:23:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

it's a pre-production test car.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 9:34:14 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

that is a really bad hit for lexus, i really had high hopes for this car, they better pray those numnbers are not accurate, if so i smell a flop/recalls and bad rep...SMH

i rarly like to post stuff on silly comments but this clown post some funny s@#!: saying u get the same options in 600h as an LS460L, but on other MB/BMW/Audi they get exclusive on there v12, lol is u stupid or u like talking out your azz, what u get on S600 different on s550 not chrome headlamps, maybe its designo paint or multispoke wheels lol ask your wife for help on this one, "since yall went car shopping" remember any dealer can make any car exclusive from factory

— Denali (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 1:39:20 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

This justifies a $55,000 price difference between an S550 and S600 ?

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 9:36:22 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

That could possibly be the most inaccurate thing you have ever posted.

Way to go.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 8:13:48 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

The engine alone. Yes.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 11:35:51 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Yes.

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 1:53:27 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Well said KaiserSoze. No other Luxury maker has a working all-wheel drive hybrid out there. The technology involved has been difficult for others to duplicate, let alone function with reliability.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 1:53:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Wait, so weight has NO bearing on the energy required to move it? I think you need to explain how that makes sense. So if the car were half the weight no improvement? Any additional weight is going to negatively affect peformance.

Nobody is saying the hybrid system doesnt work, they are saying the benefits are marginal at best. With or without an all wheel drive system, its just not giving back enough to justify the cost, both in terms of dollars and energy. The drive system should not be used as a reason for poor performance.

You make a comparison based on perceived competition..so by your logic we should only compare cars that self park? Just because a manufacturer adds a system to their vehicle does not make it unique and uncomparable to others, there will always be competition and you compare to similarly priced/sized vehicles. Most people on these boards, Lexi fans to boot, have been comparing this to all the big 3 and then some (RR, Bently!). And for the most part other manufacturers probably decide not to offer a hybrid 4x4 system because of perceived demand, no demand they wont offer it, maybe this says something about the car in question?

— markusck (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 2:16:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Kaiser, I am one of the most rational posters on this website. The only reason why I made such a post was because of the ridiculous things fanboys say about this car. They implied that this car was going to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, well apparently its not.

— no1listensanyway (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 2:25:37 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

first off Honda created the hybrid first. The Acura DNX was supposed to be the worlds first luxury hybrid but Toyota concentrated and pushed out the RX hybrid. Honda instead dumped their plans for a luxury hybrid and will concentrate it on the first hydrogen powered car in America, lets see toyota top that.

— mikeydred20 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 7:00:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

are you joking? well said? the guy said ridiculous things like the weight of car has no bearing on how much gas it takes to keep it going at highway speeds.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 7:59:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

we'll have to see about all this 'demand.'
not a single car has been sold (i.e. cash exchange).
we'll have to wait a few months to see what happens.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 8:01:08 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

They think they created a demand yet the engineering proves otherwise. Whats the point then? Other than marketing its just not a good move on their part. The competition will never release a hybrid version (like this) unless there is some real energy saving benefit other than latching onto the hybrid cachet. This just seems to be too much of a marketing push and less of an engineering marvel it should have been.

— markusck (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 9:24:55 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Oh, spare me.

I was referring to luxury features. INTERIOR features. Tangible things that the average LS600hL buyer (read: 65-year-old plutocrat) would recognize on a daily basis. Count out engineering differences- hybrid powertrain, AWD, CVT. The interiors of the two LS models are identical, and there is not a single feature available on the inside of the LS600hL that is unavailable on the LS460.

I didn't bother with your entire comment, because it was ludicrously long, but address me if there's anything more I didn't catch.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 2:04:22 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

And where did you come up with that? The brands you are referring to, German brands, have not developed a single hybrid as of now. How can you judge the reliability of these nonexistent vehicles?

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 2:05:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Twisting statements and then flat out lying? Well, that's your trademark.

It is not just "marketing" that has the rest of the entire industry adopting Toyota/Lexus practices. If Toyota/Lexus were truly "idiots for doing hybrids" one would have to question why Mercedes and BMW of all companies are following them?

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 6:00:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

We would not even have the possibility of diesel hybrids without Toyota's work on making hybrids in general more available. The main reason why we do not have a diesel hybrid yet is because manufacturers have yet to find a way to control the premium costs associated with both diesels and hybrids. In other words, diesel hybrids are too expensive. I put my money on Toyota making those cheaply available too.

Also, nobody is holding a gun to Mercedes's head. If they do not believe hybrids are the answer then they should come up with their own unique solution and ship it our way. This is not the case though, is it?

— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 3:28:06 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Toyota has already topped that. Please tell us what the point of burning hydrogen is? I love Honda, but you bring up a point that worries me. Instead of improving upon Toyota's already-proven technology, they are deciding to go their own route just for the sake of being different. The issues with hydrogen have already been raised with BMW's extensive hydrogen testing. Let us wait and see if Honda can do anything with it.

— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 3:35:11 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

These Lexus-bashing collaborations are to be expected from German fans. It's their way of convincing each other that Lexus is not as good as their favorite brands.

On the issue of the Lexus executive, he simply stated that Lexus did not have a V12 luxury sedan to compete with the "big boys" which is why they created their own "big boy," the LS600h.

Significant features the S600 has over the S550:

A V12 engine, different wheels.

Significant features the LS600H has over the LS460:

A hybrid powertrain with 4WD, different wheels, increased fuel economy (SULEV rating), optional full-leather dashboard.

Calling the LS600h a "screw-up" (a vehicle that has already sold-out) is just dumb, but again, expected here on this site.

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 1:59:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -5   

i wasnt bashing LS600h nor the S600, both are cars i would luv 2 own but i was referring to this clown comment about whats exclusive on models, i know whats u get on both cars, just dont make it look like the 600h dosent have nothing exclusive then its silbling but these other brand does!

— Denali (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 2:28:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

are you insane?
oh wait, we know you are.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 3:23:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 6   

The S600 also gets exclusive passion leather, and a leather dash, some V12 badges, ABC (active body control) and more standard equipment. But really same deal as the LS. Not accusing Lexus of copying but they've taken what the S600 does over the S550 and used it for the LS.
My problem is that the LS600h offers no real advantage over an LS460. Slower, yet less fuel efficient, far less powerful than its Mercedes rival (equal with the 760 however) and massively more heavy, with an even smaller boot.
Standard equipment doesn't bother me, and I like the idea of distinctive headlights, but while the idea is good in concept of a hybrid LS, in execution it has some serious shortcomings.

— Rupert (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 3:30:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

But it will be over a second slower than the V12 competitors and not any quicker than the competitor V8 that get the same if not better fuel economy. So far it hasn't proved anything.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 7:01:51 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

just give up. lexus screwed up. next topic.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 8:01:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

If you say V12's are pointless and stupid then what about the Ferrari, Lamborghini, Aston Martin and other cars you probably have on a poster on your wall?

What about the Bentley's that have the W12 engines? You make it sound so bad that they are larger engines than a V8 but in really the HYBRID's the only excuse you'll ever have to support the LS.

The LS600h has all the options that will satisfy a customer no doubt about it. But it's not in direct competition against the S600 type vehicles out in the market. Lower emissions or not you can't change what people think. A larger engine, a higher model, a higher level of luxury simple means more prestige in the case of any cars that are in the S600's competition.

No need to write anything back as I do respect what the LS600 has to offer. I know the LS is comfortable and is a good place to be but to say it's better than than the rest that's going too far. Since V12 cars and V8's are different they are in different leagues plain and simple.

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 8:02:11 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

This is awfully similar to the C&D test of a pre-production LS460, which was proven wrong when the car actually went on sale. I dont fault the article, which makes the point clear that the car is a test car. 0-60 times will be noticeably higher when the production car is out, and everybody here knows that. Its just too easy to use this as an excuse to flame. So have fun with that.

But I am surprised that Edmunds said that Lexus expects highway mpg to be 22. I havent seen that anywhere else, and would be quite surprised if that were the case. People really need to understand that highway cruising in a hybrid yields really high mileage, the electric motor can provide a huge assist. I almost always get better mileage in my Prius on highways than in the city.

— 1970toyotamarc (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 2:47:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

wtf? typical autospies posters. the damn car isnt even out yet. one should wonder why lexus lets people review pre-production cars. i have nothing to say about the ls600h except that as long as lexus feels like its the underdog, quality products are almost guaranteed. its not like benz, wasting time making models no one really buys.

for what its worth, the 600h is a halo car. the price of which doesnt make sense. the same is for the CL, but these cars are magnificent though.

— gsh23 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 2:51:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

gsh23 wrote
"wtf? typical autospies posters. "

Actually, these are blind Toyota-Lexus haters to the bone. Reminds me, of prius haters a long time ago. History repeats itself.

— silent_power (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 3:22:36 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Only if you think a Badge could make a car better. BMW, Audi, Benz are companies making expensive cars (many of them overpriced) and much more cheap cars too (A,B,C,1,2,3...).

— SupraNeverBack (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 4:19:15 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Of course they are playing in this class, that's why the LS600hL exists.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 4:24:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

Lexus fans at club lexus are ripping on the L600hl

http://www.clublexus.com/forums/showthread.php?t=277414


Some quotes:

"The 600h is a major disappointment. If inside line is correct, then the added mass almost 900 lbs is a disaster."

"That is exactly what my concern is. It is not a technological leap. In no measure does it justify the epithet of leap. And I am a Lexus fanatic. "

"In fact I will go as far as to say the LS600h is LESS technologically advanced than a regular LS460. "

"i agree this is a disapointment on my part as well. I thought that this would be an unbelievable achievement for lexus, but the fuel economy is not great, nor is the power...so whats the point? the LED headlights perhaps?"

watch. I'm going to get deboosted for quoting these comments from Lexus fan boys

— speedmaster (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 4:45:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 7   

Lexus went out and set the bar too high, and sadly came short. yes, i understand this is pre-production, but how on earth are they to fix the boot issue? maybe chop the end off a ls460 and make it into a small trailer. mpg are appalling, and all those die-hard lexus fan crying these are not acurate figures what are you expecting on final, an additional 10 mpg, i dont think so, most likely + or - 2 mpg. what about weight? i can hardly believe that lexus can shed 900 lbs in about one or two months before their summer launch. so this goes out to the all the lexus ls600h masterbaters, HOW DO YOU INCREASE THE BOOT, MPG BY 10 MPG, AND DECREASE THE WEIGHT BY 900 LBS IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS ON YOUR BELOVED LEXUS LS600H???
p.s. stop bringing up other cars, this is about the lexus!!!

— WeAreMad (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 5:26:30 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

im a lexus fan and i must say there something very wrong here, why would someone pay 30-40k more to get 2mpg better. but people the ls600h is not slower then the ls460.

— trd1 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 5:44:47 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

lol!

People are really arguing "price justifiable" on the most expensive Lexus ever. The LS600h is a premium luxury halo car for the brand. Nobody here argues that the CL600 or the S600 are too expensive over their V8 and V6 counterparts do they? And again, there are significant features and attributes that the 600h has over the 460, as some of you will just keep on refusing to admit. People buying this Lexus will not be concerned with such issues as value and practicality as most other Lexus customers in the past have done. That goes back to exactly what the Lexus exec was saying. The LS600h allows the brand to enter the arena of "unjustifiable" price differences between model ranges just as their German competition has done for years.

So let's say the LS600h's fuel economy will not be vastly greater than the S600 or 760. Considering the other attributes of the car it still is not a "failure." The fact that a V8 combined with a hybrid gets very similar figures to a V12 speaks enough and is an achievement in itself. The whole idea behind Lexus hybrids is to achieve performance on par with their V8/V12 competition without the drastic sacrifices of fuel economy and emissions. Even with the OFFICIAL stats not out we can all assume this will be the case.

To keep on arguing the trunk issue is trivial. We know that with hybrids, comes the sacrifice of trunk space. If you want a bigger trunk then get a bigger car. Those truly interested in and actually buying hybrids don't seem to mind the small trade-off.

The arguments here are extremely similar to te same ones tired out in GS450h threads. The difference here is that this Lexus happens to be the flagship of the brand, therefore we can expect more hostility in the comments...

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 6:54:14 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

The leather dash and fancy lights and all wheel drive..why they decided to mate the all wheel drive system to the hybrid was just asking for weight and fuel economy issues..

— markusck (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 9:36:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

supra:

you are mistaken. lexus' goal was to compete with the flagship sedans from mercedes, bmw and audi. not to develop new features the base LS.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 11:16:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

supra:

you are mistaken. lexus' goal was to compete with the flagship sedans from mercedes, bmw and audi. not to develop new features for the base LS.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 11:17:18 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

WILL- THE DIFFERENCE IS, THERE ARE REASONS WHY THE S600, 760, A8 W12 ARE MORE EXPENSIVE THAN THEIR V8 COUNTERPARTS!!!

There is NO REASON why this is so much more money!

They are doing what you have hated about Mercedes for years- they're charging PRESTIGE PRICING! For a car that doesn't even have prestige yet, because this is its first iteration!

You just can't wrap your head around the fact that LEXUS MAKES MISTAKES, can you?

I was deeply disappointed in Lexus today. No, it had nothing to do with the article. I had the day off today, and for fun, we decided to drive an S550 4Matic, to see how the 4Matic stacks up against the RWD I drove in L.A. We had to wash the RX330, and about a mile away from the carwash, lo and behold, the mirror fell off. My son had to hold the mirror in place as we were going on the highway (I was driving slowly, at 65mph) to Autohaus Mercedes-Benz. I made the call for an appointment at the Lexus dealer before we went into the M-B dealer. We waited ten minutes, and our courteous salesman brought around a black/beige S550 4Matic. It was a beauty.

...of course, the drive was fabulous, as it was beautiful out today, in my ridiculously unpredictable Chicago weather. The car was amazing, as it was the last time I had driven it. We even went to our new house (which we have not yet moved into) to see if it fit in the garage; it did, barely.

We went on to the Lexus dealer. Got there, and they said they'd order a new one, temporarily taping the one that fell off. We went to the showroom for a bit, and I sat in, oh, about four of them. The LS460 was what disappointed me most. I guess my standards were too high after being in the S550's beautifully-crafted interior, but the LS felt cheap and nasty in comparison. The palstics paled in comparison the S's metal buttons, there were a couple obvious fake wood trim pieces, and the seats felt as if someone put leather over a few pillows-- not good. I won't go on long, but it appalled me. I had seen the interior in pictures, of course, and had been driven in my friends LS460 SWB. I admired it from afar, not scrutinizing anything, and liked how it looked in pictures, if not "loving" it. But this completely changed my opinion of the car!

It made me realize: Mercedes doesn't charge prestige pricing! Their attention to detail is worth every penny! Its interior is worth the $20K over the LS!

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 2:23:48 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Lexus has done a great job. The proof will be when someone trys to buy one.
There won't be any available due to the demand.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 9:57:16 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

"It made me realize: Mercedes doesn't charge prestige pricing! Their attention to detail is worth every penny! Its interior is worth the $20K over the LS!"

Your "German fanboy-ness" is showing again. Everyone here knows the Mercedes badge is a large factor in Mercedes pricing. It is worth it to you because of the badge and what the badge represents due to marketing of the company's attributes. This is not necessarily a "bad" or "negative" thing, for I would certainly choose any Toyota or Honda over any Hyundai for the same reasons, but let us not pretend anything here.

— AudiLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 3:46:00 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I have stayed out of this fray, but I feel compelled to tell you S4- There is not one drop of "fake wood" in the LS, or in ANY Lexus model. In fact, all wood is done by Yamaha piano company for Lexus. You have lost credibility with me. BTW, Tomorrow I am off to Newport Beach for 3 days with the designers to learn about the 600.

— mitchatlexusofmarin (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 10:06:07 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I did not even say it was the car's fault. It's four years old, and is bound to have a few squeaks and rattles- it just so happens that after a carwash, it popped off. Do you seriously think I made that up to make Lexus look bad? We've had a satisfactory experience with our RX330. It just appears that my wife would like something beyond... satisfactory for her next car. Superior is probably the word I'm looking for.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 9:06:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Check the center console. There is "wood look" on the CD player. It pissed me off.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 9:10:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

"We had to wash the RX330, and about a mile away from the carwash, lo and behold, the mirror fell off"

Get your story straight.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 11:37:22 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

how about everyone waits for other reviews too, this is a preproduction model too. every other company is planning hybrids also, and by the time other mild systems from other companys come out the 2nd gen should be around the corner. one thing about the company i noticed is they always get bashed, but come out on top at the end.

— sewingmachine (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 6:58:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Figures that it takes an LS to make an LS-h look bad.

Here are the German competitors that would be too embarassed to list their own stats.
S600 - 0-60 5 sec, a super Euro-clean 15.5mpg real world combined.
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070302/FREE/70223004&Profile=1024

760Li 0-60 5.4sec, a planet saving 14.2mpg real world overall.
http://consumerguideauto.howstuffworks.com/2006-bmw-7-series-1.htm

Closest is A8L W12, 0-60 in 5.8sec, 19.2mpg observed w/ a trunk (14.6) that's not much bigger than the LS-h's.

Note the LS-h is the heaviest of them all, and still at worst holds its own.

Yeah, we know, those who can afford it don't need to worry about mpg. Kind of sounds like a truck buyer.

I guess 4 pistons outdoes 2 nuts anyday.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 7:37:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Actually 5.1 seconds. But the W12 is very quick. The S8 has been clocked as quick as 4.7 seconds.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 11:19:39 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Nice job making the W12 look slower because you didn't want it to have good stats...

I've seen five seconds flat for the Audi. huu, you are incredibly frustrating. 5.8? Where did that come from? Not from Audi's website- they say 5.0 seconds. And they UNDERestimate!

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 2:29:42 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Who cares about the acceleration times of high end luxury cars? Anybody that would buy these types of vehicles are not looking for speed demons.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 9:32:33 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

I will agree with you on your overall point. It is funny how it takes an LS460L to make the LS600hL look bad. Just goes to show just how good the LS is to begin with. I am also noticing how many posters who flat-out claimed to hate the LS460 are now all of the sudden singing its praises.

— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 2:18:25 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Another excuse! You cornered me about saying that reliability doesn't matter (though I didn't actually say that), but now you're saying acceleration doesn't matter! LOL! Get a mirror!

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 9:08:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

It's obvious that heads are going to roll at the Toyota engineering center in Tokyo.

— BMW995 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 8:41:53 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Here we go again!!!...But I have to admit about the weight and numbers, I was expecting just a little more than that in terms of efficiency but not as heavy . But realize this, Lexus is in its' 1st Generation Hybrid when it comes in the full size V8 segment. No other manufacturer will ever come close as we speak. After all Lexus is the only one to have the big-kahunas to step up to the plate and at least make the attempt and prove the level of innovation they are today. Based on EPA numbers and performance there is really no loss compared to the LS460, just less emissions is their target at the moment. Remember who are they really competiting at this point??? No one, and not for the next 2 years at least...so why burn themselves out that quick? You can compare performance & weight numbers all day long against german autos and elsewhere, but realize germans had their engines(V8s'& V12s') forever. So really no surprise there as to how light or how fast they are. As for mating a Hybrid to at least a petrol V8, Germans right now are nowhere close. Remember Lexus gives a better performance, with little emissions, so why not compare that to the German V8s' and V12s' etc...by the time everybody else comes out with thier own fuel efficient technology in the Luxury segment, Lexus will have gone into its' 2nd Generation, where fuel efficiency performance and taking less space with less weight will become ahead of the game...it's just the begining ladies and gents just like the early prius days and look where they are now...Okay German and Japan fanboys con't on with your flame wars....LMAO!!!!

— BigShow50 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 8:42:04 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Lexus ALWAYS understates their 0 - 60 times by at least .5 seconds. Here are the results of the 5 Top Luxury Cars in this test which was reported in the January Issue of Car and Driver. Please note these tests were all done on the same day at about the same time and at the same altitude. The results reflect the average of 3 runs and all cars are the 2007 vintage.

Mercedes S550 5.6, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.1
BMW 750iL 5.7, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.2
Jag XJ Super 6.0 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.5
Lexus LS460L 6.2 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.6
Audi A8 6.8 0 - 60 quarter mile 15.2

Note that Lexus, as usual, is more than the 5.4 the manufacturer CLAIMS to get by .8 seconds.

Also note the LS430 (prior model the LS460 replaced) was rated at 295 HP and was actually 278 when Lexus corrected their rating. And there were no refunds or apologies from the so-called "quality" car company. ABC - Always Be Careful what you buy from the Lexus people.....

— bevisroy (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 9:37:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Yep,Lexus has definitely been overstating lots of their numbers. Some have been proven, some have not.

— chewy (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 11:18:01 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Lexus does not in fact typically overstate performance figures. What is actually the case is that they send sub-par pre-production models to reviewers, the results of which are then used for comparison without a second consideration of circumstances.

— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 1:53:23 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

I love the S8, but the LS600hL was NOT intended to compete with such cars? If you're such a devout unbiased Lexus fan, I would assume you were aware of that?

— AudiLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 4:01:22 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

enthusiast,
Ummm-hmmmm, and is that a stock S600, or the Brabus one that you probably conveniently failed to mention? In that case, the Evo MR FQ400 "4-banger" kicks all their asses.

Love how the first paragraph omitted just enough to make to it sound like Toyota was admitting they're don't belong on the list, not that the guy was saying that was in the past and this new car was to change all that.

Fanboy,
Because they can afford it.

Doesn't change the fact the LS-h can respectfully keep up while showing the world that more from less is very possible with a little humility.

Won't change any minds but I take everyone chose to ignore where it states the LS isn't a sports sedan, meaning performance takes a backseat to luxury. 6 seconds is still pretty good for something that almost weighs as much as a G500.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 10:30:24 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Lots of posts about "Where are all the Lexus fanboys..."

Don't you just love these BMW/MB fanboys. You guys crack me up. I bet you guys have been waiting long and hard for an article like this to come around aren't you.

Well, I don't blame you. Lexus continuously come up with cars that scare you $hitless so an article like this sure represents a refreshing change. Something for you guys to savor, eh?

Well let's recap the usual drivel you usually spit whenever there's an article about Lexus...

- You said the h offers no extra fuel-efficiency
- You said performance is no better than the regular LS
- you said price is too steep, and lastly (and this is something that just kills me laughing)
- offers no prestige LOL!!!

Now based on these "expert" observations, one might think no way on earch the car's going to sell, right?

WRONG!!! It doesn't matter what you people say. Lexus will sell EACH AND EVERY h they will produce. Even with the high price tag.

And you know why? Because there are people who can afford it. These people don't give a fuk that performance and fuel-efficiency is on par with an LS.

This is the world's first hybrid super-luxury vehicle and is sold in very limited quantities to boot (hence the exclusivity factor). And for that alone, people will be lining up to buy it.

Sorry BMW/MB fans, as much as I know you'd like to rub this bit of Lexus negativity in, the h would still be a success, and you're fears about Lexus finally attaining that coveted "prestige" title will be realized.

— flozel1 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/20/2007 11:38:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

They never said 30 mpg. What the heck are you talking about?

— mitchatlexusofmarin (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 10:18:02 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

The LS is not a super-luxury sedan. Get it through your thick skull. Even the German's don't claim that with their top models.

Plain and simple, European luxury is recognized world wide not a Lexus. To many a Lexus is still just a luxury Toyota. I think they have come long ways to get to where they are but to say they are better than it's competition that's not true.

Lexus is bought because of it's great pricing for what they offer. An LS buyer would not buy an S600, A8 W12, or a 760. An LS I admit does well for those whom it caters to. Luxury and a comfortable ride that's good. But even though Lexus packs this car with nice neat options it still lacks the prestige i'm looking for.

For US consumers they think it's prestige because for the luxury market in the US in regards to domestic brands they have what? Cadillac to compete with? Compared to Cadillac the quality is much better in a Lexus. After all majority of the marketing projects are held here in North America. Remember this was an American-Japanese brand before they tried to go world wide. Try to convince all the current German brand owners elsewhere to buy a Lexus. It will be quite hard. You all know it.

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 3:38:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

They have not become stronger, they have dodged a bullet. Do you think Lexus is going to take this lightly? They are going to work day an night to correct this problms of the LS600. Do you assume that the next 7 series is going to be a hybrid just because its cool? No its not because of what Lexus has brought to the table. Sevor this is a small battle won by the Germans but the war is not over. Watch and hang around, I give Lexus 10 years before they take over the luxury business. I respect every brand for what it is worth, but Lexus will not stop fighting until it is at the top.

— no1listensanyway (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 4:22:17 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

This is why the LS600hL was created, as an alternative to a V12.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 8:42:31 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

^Using this method BMW will never be as good as Mercedes because Mercedes will always have more experience, considering the company was established first. Old arguments tire fast.

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 6:02:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 4   

Lexus makes luxury cars often noted as having "unmatched refinement."

"hahahaha...."

— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 3:21:52 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

...

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 5:52:45 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

Flozel: "Well, I don't blame you. Lexus continuously come up with cars that scare you $hitless so an article like this sure represents a refreshing change. Something for you guys to savor, eh?

Well let's recap the usual drivel you usually spit whenever there's an article about Lexus...

- You said the h offers no extra fuel-efficiency
- You said performance is no better than the regular LS
- you said price is too steep, and lastly (and this is something that just kills me laughing)
- offers no prestige LOL!!!

Now based on these "expert" observations, one might think no way on earch the car's going to sell, right?

WRONG!!! It doesn't matter what you people say. Lexus will sell EACH AND EVERY h they will produce. Even with the high price tag.

And you know why? Because there are people who can afford it. These people don't give a fuk that performance and fuel-efficiency is on par with an LS.

This is the world's first hybrid super-luxury vehicle and is sold in very limited quantities to boot (hence the exclusivity factor). And for that alone, people will be lining up to buy it.

Sorry BMW/MB fans, as much as I know you'd like to rub this bit of Lexus negativity in, the h would still be a success, and you're fears about Lexus finally attaining that coveted "prestige" title will be realized."


WELL SAID, Flozel!

it really cracks me up too, all the hysteria about the LS600 also being "slower" than the ls460!

slower by 0.1 second to 60mph? (and same 1/4 mile time.) who the fuk CARES? esp. in this class, where most owners would be lounging in the back seat?

what straws the germy fanboys won't grasp at, on their nitpicking witchhunts! LOL!

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 6:00:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -5   

Despite what the badge whores on this thread would have you believe, each of these LS vehicles for sale will be sold. For those of you that believe a luxury automobile should sacrifice luxury (its primary attribute) for performance numbers, are dopes. No other luxury car maker has the combination of luxury and reliability as Lexus does. Sure the other brands think they might have that "magical soul and passion factor", but people that actually buy these types of vehicles speak with their wallets. I don't think Lexus has to worry about what some kids here are ranting about.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 9:07:20 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

If the "numbers" were what people who purchase these types of vehicles define them by, than Lexus does not have to worry. The world's first luxury hybrid with awd an engineering bust? Again, people vote with their wallets, and even in this rarified air, Lexus will succeed.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 10:18:25 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

how long will the battery last?! toyota is already crying about the battery in the prius which is killing resale value. i live in southern california, a year ago used second gen prius were selling very close to msrp. now their about $10k less! so in 2009 or 2010, this ls600h will be about $50k-$60k used. and owners will cough up maybe $20k for a battery replacement during those two years. with all those gadgets and self parking crap it'll kill that battery a lot faster.

go lexus!-(sarcasm)

— WeAreMad (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 10:21:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Bottom line is

Who ever buys the LS600h over the LS460 is a greeny hypocrite.

— M53R (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 12:47:40 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

Why would anyone care what a German fan thinks about a Lexus? Lexus and their fans just need to realize that there is nothing Lexus can or will ever do to appease them. I accepted that a long time ago, which is why I take what most of them say, especially S4cabriofox, at face-value and leave it at that. Did we really expect them to admit they like the LS600h? No, because that would mean their precious S600, 760, A8 W12 etc would be put in the background.

Plenty of people pay unnecessarily for a badge. This is why the S600, 760 etc even sell. There's no difference besides the V12 engine and badging. To me, that is NOT "more justifiable" than the difference between the 460 and the 600h, yet the Germans get that special "we're German" pass yet again.

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 1:19:17 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

Interesting. I just got my copy of Car&Driver which has a "short take" on the LS600hL. They got the car 0-60 in 5.4 seconds, they got it 50-70 in 3.1 seconds and a quarter mile of 13.8 seconds.

Also, after a week with the car they got 20mpg while only getting 13mpg on the LS460L (they do ride them hard). Finally, the fuel consumption ratings on the hybrid are taken with 2008 EPA testing, while the numbers they use on the LS460L is from the 2007 method. All manufacturer's fuel consumption numbers will drop for 2008.

They don't even bring up the fact that the LS600hL emits 70% less pollutants than a comparable gasoline only car.

The bottom line is that there will be a market for this car amongst people that find its strengths worthy. Just like there are people that want a V12 when most may find it too much.

— Ironman273 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 2:51:59 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

In full disclosure, yes I do work for Lexus, but I tend to like German cars (as well as Lexus). I do, however, dislike fanboyism on both sides and distorting the facts to make your "side" look better. There's a lot to like about Lexus if you take the time to learn about. I remember I felt similar to a lot of "German fanboys" before I learned more about the brand and what goes into it.

C&D says they got the LS460L to 60 in 6 seconds, so it is faster according the C&D (which I trust more than the manufacturer's numbers).

Finally, there is more news on the IS coupe and SC, but I can't say. ;)

— Ironman273 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 3:44:28 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

Everyone here keeps commenting on the "huge" price difference. If a top-of-the-line LS460L can run for $93,000 then the jump to $111,000 is not that steep at all. Keep that in mind.

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 5:56:03 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

In 1989 most everyone thought a $35K Lexus from Toyota would fail. I wish all the people who speak to the importance of history would learn from it.

I'll always think it's funny that the biggest proponents of "heritage and exclusivity" always bash Lexus and would seem to want everyone driving the same damn cars.

This pre-production review doesn't offer a definative view of what the hybrid LS is or what it is capable of.

The average buyer of an LS hybrid or Merc/BMW/Audi V12 does not read automotive magazines much less care what posters at autospies.com think.

When was the last time a non-Lexus news post got anywhere close to 200 posts? I think that speaks a lot about the attitudes of posters here.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 4/21/2007 8:11:51 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

The fact that Lexus is not more popular in Europe does not take away from their success in North America.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 3:17:31 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Wow. This will be another record thread for this site, all because of the topic, of course.

Things to consider:

There is not a "$33,000 price difference" between the LS460 and the LS600h. Not even between the extended wheelbase versions. The base price of a non-extended wheelbase LS460 is $61,000, this is the LOWEST-possible price of a new LS, but we all know very few are being sold at that configuration price.

The base price of an LS600h, which will only be available in extended-wheelbase form, is $104,000. As-tested prices of LS460Ls have been as high as $90,000 which would mean that the jump from LS460L to LS600hL is not as significant as some are making it out to be.

Not to even mention the list of features that will be exclusive to the LS600hL. World's first LED high- and low-beam swiveling headlights, full-leather dashboard and doors, as well as the executive-seating option standard in the LS600hL. Add to that exclusive wheels, all-wheel drive and of course, the most powerful hybrid system ever. It seems as if a certain someone is listing every detail possible to imply that the jump from S550 to S600 is more reasonable, how about listing every detail there is within the LS600hL?

Of course badge-bragging comes into play here which is what I believe scares you all the most. With the S600 you get to tout that you have a big V12. With the LS600hL you get to tout that you have the most powerful hybrid system on the market. Welcome to the new Lexus way of thinking. Say the price is "unjustified" as you will, just remember that all the prices of all the cars the LS600hL are equally "unjustifiable" to the average car buyer.

Keep in mind that Lexus has had a history of delivering sub-par preproduction test cars to reviewers. Initial reviews of Lexus models have generally proven to be inconclusive of the full potential of actual production models. Braking distances for the actual production models of Lexus vehicles always prove to be better than what is initially tested, this has been proven.

This is also why I seriously doubt the LS600hL is this much worse a performer than the LS460L. Even considering these performance numbers, consider the whole idea behind the Lexus line of hybrids: a gain in performance without a dramatic decrease in economy and emissions. Considering this, Lexus hit their mark. The LS600hL does not receive a dramatic decrease in fuel economy from the LS460, AND it emits dramatically less. Take into consideration how performance of the S600 is improved from the S550, but at the expense of fuel economy and emissions from such an engine.

Also, keep in mind that the magazine compared older EPA estimates, from the old abandoned method might I add, against the manufacturer's estimates. When the LS460 and LS600 are rated under the new EPA testing standards, we can all assume that the fuel economy differences will be substantially different from what we see here.

Until more conclusive testing is done, how a

— Anthony (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 1:41:49 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

All great points Anthony.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 8:05:21 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

Very good post, but there's still something to be done here:

"The base price of an LS600h, which will only be available in extended-wheelbase form, is $104,000. As-tested prices of LS460Ls have been as high as $90,000 which would mean that the jump from LS460L to LS600hL is not as significant as some are making it out to be."

Remember, you're comparing the base hybrid to the loaded non-hybrid. Loaded hybrid is $120-130K, if I've heard correctly. That is a difference, but not nearly as large as the gap between the German trio and their twelve-cylinder variants.

Also, if you really wanted to, you could get the exec. seating in the LS460L, or the hybrid's wheels at the dealer. Those aren't "exclusive" options; only exclusives are leather dash, LEDs and hybrid powertrain.

And as much as you hate to admit it, in this stratosphere, prestige really, truly does come into play. Nobody wants the new kid on the block- unless, of course, that "kid" has proven himself in other ways. IMO, in the US market, the LS has been proven. The hybrid badge won't change anything... but some may be shocked that Lexus has finally gone into six figures.

Other than that, I agree.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/24/2007 12:07:08 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

If these were concrete figures, then I would agree that this is an underwhelming car. Note the review said that it failed to match up to the "hybrid hype." They picked the WRONG car to compare to general "hybrid hype!!!"

Did anyone expect a 5L V8 luxo-limo weighing as much as a G-Class to live up to "hybrid hype?" I didn't. What it DOES do, is give you "hybrid" bragging rights in substitution of where most would like to claim "V12" bragging rights. Also, did people notice in the review that only 2,000 LS600hs will be sold in North America?

An ultra-exclusive V8 HYBRID luxury limo-cruiser with 430bhp, LED headlights, active stabilizers, fully-leather interior, touch-screen navigation, rear-seat DVD entertainment, world-class sound-system, most technologically-advanced safety features and guaranteed quality and reliability is "justified" at $111K to me.

The fact that this heavy, fully-loaded-up, full-size, long wheelbase sedan gets even remotely close to 20mpg is amazing to me. Anything more is a bonus.

— AudiLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 3:57:40 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 3   

It's not supposed to be a "good value" just like the cars it compares with is exactly the point people are trying to get across here.

— AudiLexus (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 4:44:39 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Preferably everywhere Servor...

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 4:51:52 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Will,

I agree with you that with this new generation the new LS has proven that they are a premium brand. However my favorite Lexus is not the LS it's in fact the GS. I'm a die hard German fan and you might have read from some of my posts but I do notice what Lexus is doing and they are doing everything on par to cater to it's consumers.

I don't think it's an S600, A8 W12, 760Li competitor because it's not. It wasn't designed to go head to head with those. It was simply a hybrid full size luxury sedan that's made with quality and catered to the people who want a comfortable and quiet ride. It's also a much more affordable alternative to the S550, 750Li, & A8's which is a good selling point for Lexus to withdraw buyers from the German market.

As for prestige it's really subjective and I'll leave that all to you guys but I personally do think the LS lacks the prestige of a European luxury sedan. BUT Japanese cars do have their own prestige nonetheless. Lexus does not in anyway try to jump from it's Toyota past. It's very much Japanese and it's obvious with their designs. Not a bad thing at all.

Topics like this get so heated because the Germans have their pride with German cars but Japanese fans have theirs too respectively. It's all fair game. Lexus is the baby of the pack in terms of world wide recognition for being premium but it has done wonders in the US market, a market which Toyota wanted to target from the get-go. I think even if it doesn't reach a world wide level of success, the sales in the US & CANADA will be a success already.

Lexus is understated and more affordable and for some it's what they want. There is no way to justify why a S600 is that much but it doesn't matter how much it costs because buyers of that segment will pay the extra amount regardless. It's like for a Rolls Royce, Bentley, or Maybach. How can we justify a car can cost that much? buyers of that range buys it because they can and they want to without questions asked.

The Lexus LS is the most affordable full size luxury sedan in it's segment and it's great for what it does. I, a German fan, will not take that away from the brand. I'm just trying to make some peace here with some of the Lexus supporters to show that a German fan can still recognize and respect another brand. Sorry guys i'm selling out as I would choose a German sedan over a Lexus but credit should be given where credit is due.

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 9:10:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 5   

That's very sweet of you Agent63 telling us, that as a German fan, you respect Lexus for what they have accomplished, but would still choose a German Sedan over Lexus. That's the typical answer of ALL German fans on this site. No matter what Lexus does, they will ALWAYS choose a German sedan.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 9:28:29 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

I always thought a car nut would be interested in all cars, whether it's a Daewoo or a Ferrari.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 12:02:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

All manufacturers need to market. Lexus is constantly penalized because they have the best marketing department? If the product weren't good, they wouldn't sell. I don't know what Lexus has to do to please any of you here. The team of engineers and designers that worked on the LS got my respect for the fine automobile that they produced.

Lexus will never have enough "soul" for skeptics. They'll do just fine without you. The rest of the world is already saying otherwise.

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 4:58:41 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

I am just saying that I can't stand the vibe that if it's not German it's not worth caring about.

And you can spare me your smugness.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 5:12:25 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

David,

I give some credit to Lexus and you go and say something like that? I would buy a Lexus, but not the LS. I would prefer the GS for styling. If I wanted a larger luxury sedan I would get something else besides the LS. The styling is not my taste plain and simple.

It doesn't matter though, I got boosted and you're getting deboosted.

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 7:14:21 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

If self-parking and hybrid technology truly were just "marketing gizmos," one has to wonder why so many other manufacturers are planning their own self-parking and hybrid vehicles. Some time in the near future, alot more cars will be parking themselves and come equipped with hybrid powertrains. When these vehicles come, Lexus will be able to say they were the pioneers. Call that "marketing" or whatever you will.

— Will_ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 9:40:56 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

We ALL know how that the boosting system on this site is a great barometer.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 8:28:23 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -2   

david999, what is your problem?

This guy admits that the LS is a great car. SO HE PREFERS THE GERMAN SEDAN. What's it to you? YOU PREFER THE JAPANESE CAR. We get that!

BUT DOES EVERYBODY HAVE TO? Do we all have to want to buy the LS over the S-Class? Is that what you want? Everyone in the world drives a Lexus? What fun would that be?! You are a communist!

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 9:57:42 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

According to Ironman273, C&D did a pre-production LS600hL:

0-60 5.4s 1/4mile 13.8s

50-70 3.1s! (for reference: GS450h did that in 3.6s; 550i in 3.8s; E550 in 3.7s)

20mpg observed.

Those are V12 performances, v6 FE!

Edmunds ran a 760Li with 0-60 over 6 seconds too, and Audi A8 W12 0-60 in 5.8s, 1/4m in 13.82s, slalom speed 61.3mph, slower than the LS600h.

Good to be Lexus fan. ^0^ Can't wait for Lexus official numbers to shut up all the haters here.

— SupraNeverBack (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 1:23:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -3   

Also, according to S4cab, buyers of these types of vehicles don't care about reliability either. What horse dung.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 6:01:23 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

I don't think they look at either one, mpg or 0-60. They are all pretty close so its all going to come down to design, image, history, prestige, again, that undefinable 'magic' which seems to allude Lexus.

— markusck (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 7:45:00 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Sold out? There is a list, but sold out? Not yet. But probably I agree. But why? Because of the hybrid hype even with less than meaningful savings and thats something I don't see other manufacturers doing, releasing less then proven technology for the pure marketing benefit. Uneducated consumers thinking they are doing the environment a favor won't know the difference, see the hybrid badge and open their wallets. That just seems a bit too crafty for me. Hybrid on this vehicle is just wrong.

— markusck (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 10:31:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Mercedes rated last by Consumer Reports. Not all luxury makers are close.

— david999 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 8:24:47 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

In the US Market sure but not world wide buddy. You guys keep on thinking the US Market is the world but you obviously forgot where prestige all began. In European countries where Lexus does not dominate. Also hybrids do not dominate Europe as Diesel power does. Don't forget that.

— Agent63 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 5:36:29 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 2   

Will, the twelve-cylinder sedans get about 4 mpg worse than the LS600hL. The fact that they range from half a second to a second and a half quicker to 60 outshines that figure. It's a much bigger % difference than the fuel economy advantage. THAT is an argument.

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 10:01:45 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

For those just joining us:

The new LS hybrid sucks.

It might be a complete sell out at the dealers, but it will still be a failure.

Even with David Copperfield driving it, the car will be devoid of that "magic" feeling.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 9:51:32 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

You're basing your belief not on personal experience nor a summation of multiple reviews of the car, but rather a singular preview article.

That would seem to indicate that you are making the blind arguments.

— answer (View Profile)

Posted on 4/24/2007 11:56:33 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

The game is already over,if its about soul or what ever you want to call it,the germans still have alot of life. I've driven all kinds of cars and they all have their strengths and weakness. I if we just look at the numbers lexus rules.

— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 10:30:07 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -4   

The game is already over,if its about soul or what ever you want to call it,the germans still have alot of life. I've driven all kinds of cars and they all have their strengths and weakness. I if we just look at the numbers lexus rules.

— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 10:31:35 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -5   

The game is already over,if its about soul or what ever you want to call it,the germans still have alot of life. I've driven all kinds of cars and they all have their strengths and weakness. I if we just look at the numbers lexus rules.

— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 10:31:38 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -6   

The game is already over,if its about soul or what ever you want to call it,the germans still have alot of life. I've driven all kinds of cars and they all have their strengths and weakness. I if we just look at the numbers lexus rules.

— autopro (View Profile)

Posted on 4/22/2007 10:31:58 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -7   

it's really funny listening to all you guys try to justify a car that's inferior to it's junior sibling in so many ways.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 1:27:16 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

this car is a bore. unexceptional in every way. name one thing that wealthy buyers care about that it does that is superior to its competitors. good luck.

next.

— enthusiastx11 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 1:30:59 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

WOW! You guys have been up ALL DAY on this hybrid thing. Gonna get carpal tunnel raving/ranting about this 4500lb lump of metal. Earth day people!! I just finished watching "An Inconvenient Truth" an hour ago and this is all I have to say. I'm going to spend less time on these blogs and more on trying to get away from the infernal combustion engine. Here is Sf, CAlifornia, it's not a hard thing to do. One can literally walk across town to work, as indeed I do on almost all days that it isn't too foggy or rainy.
Still- at least Lexus is trying to make 'Hybrid' a household word. What are the Germans and GM/Ford doing? Bigger and bigger, fatter and fatter, heavier and heavier cars with engines that do NOTHING a hundred year old engine couldn't do.

— Lyall (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 2:00:26 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1   

WOW! You guys have been up ALL DAY on this hybrid thing. Gonna get carpal tunnel raving/ranting about this 4500lb lump of metal. Earth day people!! I just finished watching "An Inconvenient Truth" an hour ago and this is all I have to say. I'm going to spend less time on these blogs and more on trying to get away from the infernal combustion engine. Here is Sf, CAlifornia, it's not a hard thing to do. One can literally walk across town to work, as indeed I do on almost all days that it isn't too foggy or rainy.
Still- at least Lexus is trying to make 'Hybrid' a household word. What are the Germans and GM/Ford doing? Bigger and bigger, fatter and fatter, heavier and heavier cars with engines that do NOTHING a hundred year old engine couldn't do.

— Lyall (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 2:01:35 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

A8 - 4,321 lbs
XJ8 - 3,726 lbs
LS460 - 4,244 lbs
S550 - 4,465 lbs
750i - 4,486 lbs

honestly, your only choice for lightweight is the XJ8. but no one here will ever consider an XJ8. i mean, when youre already 2.5 tons, whats another several hundred lbs?

— gsh23 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 7:53:16 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Only 278 comments? Come on, guys, let's go for 400!

— S4cabriofoxone (View Profile)

Posted on 4/23/2007 8:55:54 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: 0   

Enthusiast,
That's MB's claimed 0-60, my links showed that that didn't happen (if you're going to compare, compare real-tests w/ real-tests and manufacturer claims with manufacturer claims). Whatever happened to the Germans being conservative about their numbers? Sounds more like they're wishful now. Gotta love that EPA 12mpg.

People will buy the LS-h because they can. They want more power, more technology. Sound familiar? It's what German fans usually said to justify magic feel and other BS claims.

— huu76 (View Profile)

Posted on 4/24/2007 9:47:50 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

...

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/26/2007 4:06:22 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

s4cab: "You don't seem to understand.

Let me spell it out for you:

R E L I A B I L I T Y I S N O T T H E O N L Y R E A S O N P E O P L E B U Y L U X U R Y C A R S!

Is that really your only defense? "RELIABILITY?!" Is that just a fallback? And how do you know this car will be reliable? We don't even know how reliable the LS460 is yet! Reputations mean nothing... with all the new tech in these cars, it could've gone wrong. You can never just assume."


you can't assume, but you CAN LOOK AT cars' TRACK RECORDS.

that for mb is so horrible, CR recommends all of ZERO percent of all the models they have tested. toyota, including lexus, gets an 85% rate of recommendation. honda/acura 100%.

as far as magic feel, for the road test segments of their evaluations (most comprehensive and OBJECTIVE of all journo tests), bmw and mb both get a 77 test score. honda 78. toyota 70. vw/audi 81.

— XYZZ (View Profile)

Posted on 4/26/2007 4:17:58 AM | reply to this comment | Votes: 1   

Lexus ALWAYS understates their 0 - 60 times by at least .5 seconds. Here are the results of the 5 Top Luxury Cars in this test which was reported in the January Issue of Car and Driver. Please note these tests were all done on the same day at about the same time and at the same altitude. The results reflect the average of 3 runs and all cars are the 2007 vintage.

Mercedes S550 5.6, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.1 (Benz specs show 5.4)
BMW 750iL 5.7, 0 - 60 quarter mile in 14.2
Jag XJ Super 6.0 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.5
Lexus LS460L 6.2 0 - 60 quarter mile 14.6
Audi A8 6.8 0 - 60 quarter mile 15.2

Note that Lexus, as usual, is more than the 5.4 the manufacturer CLAIMS to get by .8 seconds.

Also note the LS430 (prior model the LS460 replaced) was rated at 295 HP and was actually 278 when Lexus corrected their rating. And there were no refunds or apologies from the so-called "quality" car company. ABC - Always Be Careful what you buy from the Lexus people.....

— bevisroy (View Profile)

Posted on 4/26/2007 6:40:50 PM | reply to this comment | Votes: -1