TTAC Tests LS600HL Again! This time, they get it right!

LexusKindaGuy12 submitted on 06/08/2008 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 4:52 PM
from: www.thetruthaboutcars.com

Tags: Lexus

Lexus

TTAC Tests LS600HL Again! This time, they get it right!

I disagree with every review of the Lexus LS600hL ever written. Categorically. To a man, my colleagues misinterpret the most expensive Lexus as a misguided planet-saver that doesn't deliver enough mpg to justify its sky-high price tag. I view the ultimate hybrid as better driving through science. In fact, despite the dorky "hybrid" badges uglifying the LS600hL's flanks, Lexus didn't build this beast to sip fuel. They built it to go toe-to-toe with 12-cylinder Germans.

The LS600hL is no design statement, like the 760Li. It doesn't announce, "I have a huge wallet" like a Mercedes S600. The LS design is much more Audi A8 W12, only without the goatee. The restrained yet handsome lines strike the same chord as VW's Phaeton. Only this time they're brand correct.

The LS600hL is a handsome package. At a distance, the big four-door appears clean and reserved. It's only when you pull up next to (and dwarf) anything else on the road that the long-wheelbase Japanese pseudo limo makes aesthetic sense. In a word: presence. In two: killer headlights. Read Article

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JRobUSC - 6/8/2008 5:23:52 PM

-1 Boost

hooray, one decent review out of a million. Congratulations Lexus.

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hao420 - 6/8/2008 7:00:54 PM

+1 Boost

Lexus > German double "B"

tattedtwice - 6/8/2008 10:35:21 PM

-4 Boost

Congrats, indeed. Every other credible reviewer (rightfully) hates and trashes this overrated marketing exercise, but here toyota finally got someone to speak kindly about it. How many zeros do you think they had to put on the check to make this happen?

Peyton18 - 6/8/2008 5:25:35 PM

+2 Boost

I saw this next to a S550 yesterday and there is simply no comparison, Mercedes just owns this segment.

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tattedtwice - 6/8/2008 10:10:50 PM

-12 Boost

The only thing mercedes, and (especially the s "class") owns is the title Most Overrated. There is nothing special about the s, nada. While it's definitely a better luxoboat than the camry-ish ls460, there is NO reason to buy one over a 7 or the A8, unless you (mistakenly) think that star is going to impress the neighbors.

w209w114 - 6/8/2008 11:38:58 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Tatted,

I take it you haven't been inside an S550 or felt the quality and craftsmanship of its interior. For those of us who have, there is no debate. The Audi A8 is the second most impressive, followed by the BMW and the Lexus (there is nothing premium or class-leading about the look of the plastic, and rather conventional setup of its interior)

Designer1 - 6/9/2008 2:51:00 AM

-4 Boost

Unbelievable crap is being said here, comparing AGAIN the quality of Lexus to MB and others. Well let me think for a moment... OH, I think Lexus was ranked #2 after Porsche and MB was, umm in the 20s??? And BMW wasn't even on the list.

MB has quality, Audi has quality, but none of them comes close to Lexus quality, accept it please. All manufacturers take Lexus quality as a bench mark for their vehicles.

Willis - 6/9/2008 7:04:12 AM

+3 Boost

Lexus quality is a little overrated, Designer1. Good quality cars, but they're far from perfect and also make the list of cars with problems like any other.

Agent63 - 6/9/2008 7:21:49 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

tattedtwice:

You have it all wrong. over rated? I don't think so. You talk smack because you've never had one before. I have the regular LS460 and the S. Both are certainly very good but the S is my favorite. The build quality is great and the LS is good as well.

Hell, the A8 is awesome as well. That fit and finish is like no other.

But to say there's nothing special about the S that's just words of people who envy...I'm sorry.

1BadMan - 6/8/2008 5:31:41 PM

+1 Boost

Um, Lexus does not build cars last time I checked. Toyota builds it. They try to convince you they do
( heavy handed marketing speak) but they don't. And one good review? The Benz S-class rules the segment once the wrestled it away from the BMW E65/E66 7 Series (current models).

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Peyton18 - 6/8/2008 5:35:23 PM

-1 Boost

wrestled it away? in terms of refinement, beauty and performance the last S was still better than the 2002 7 series monstrosity...

bmwdrvr - 6/8/2008 5:51:35 PM

-2 Boost

wrong there the current S class is certainly best in class the last generation wasnt at all....it was simply a large mercedes...the 2002 7 series redefined the segment and alot of the innovations BMW put into place on the 7 were introduced with the new S class...not to mention other brands.

tattedtwice - 6/8/2008 10:20:39 PM

-7 Boost

"wrestled it away? in terms of refinement, beauty and performance the last S was still better than the 2002 7 series monstrosity..."

Im starting to wonder if the 18 in your name points to your age or IQ. Either way, it seems accurate, since you sound pretty idiotic right now. You clearly have a bias towards the s, and it's obviously causing you to see it as something it clearly is not; it's nothing but a german ls460, whereas both the 7 and the A8 are the real sports sedans in the class.

w209w114 - 6/8/2008 11:43:51 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

"You clearly have a bias towards the s, and it's obviously causing you to see it as something it clearly is not; it's nothing but a german ls460"

TALK ABOUT BIAS! There are some of us who are too blind to see what's right in-front of our eyes, or the crap we spew. For the record, the LS was an attempt at an S-Class over 18 years ago. Today, it still hasn't "equaled" the S-Class' greatness. You can debate me all you want, but that wont change the truth.

Peyton18 - 6/9/2008 1:02:00 AM

+3 Boost

Interesting you try to demean me for my opinion even though its based on fact. The BMW was widely thought to be very odd if not ugly when it first came out in 2002. I am not 18 and I refuse to listen to someone who insults my intelligence when you are clearly bias towards plastic and mediocrity.

LexusKindaGuy12 - 6/8/2008 5:42:06 PM

+3 Boost

the point of this article was to show that not all the writers from TTAC are jackasses. lol

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TheSailor - 6/8/2008 5:45:30 PMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

That is a pretty poor point now isn't it?!

TheSailor - 6/8/2008 5:44:45 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Yes yes... this is all very nice, but we're still not getting past the fact that IT ISN'T A V12!!! What it is is a very nerdy car! It is like when I tell people that I use Linux on my laptop because it is a far superior OS to everything else! I know that, a select few might know that, but my ex-girlfriend still wouldn't touch it and thought it was incredibly dorky! The LS is the same sort of thing (minus the "far superior" part). It might give you V12-like power, but it is still just a V8 and all that hybrid-talk will just make you look like a geek who is trying to justify something which doesn't make sence! When somebody ask you "But why didn't you just buy a car with a REAL V12" all you can say is "Because it is so darn advanced!" or "Because Lexus doesn't offer one"... Because it offers absolutely no advantages over a real V12, only drawbacks! The biggest being the total lack of boot-space and the ridiculously low loading capacity! It just doesn't make sence!

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w209w114 - 6/8/2008 11:51:24 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Not only is it NOT a V12 or a 6.0 Litre engine as its badge suggests, but it's not even a class leading V-8. This is simply a sticker car, a mockery of what makes a car exotic and excessive poorly integrated engineering and technology.

Why dont they just call it what it is? or let the car speak for itself. The car is clearly an engineering marvel, but the way it was pieced together and where all the engineering went leaves some of us unfulfilled

LexusKindaGuy12 - 6/9/2008 12:04:41 AM

+3 Boost

well you can say that about all the hybrids in their lineup. The GS450h uses the 3.5 liter, the RX400h uses the 3.3

w209w114 - 6/9/2008 11:06:44 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

LexusKindaGuy,

Yes, it can indeed be said for those models too. A little poetic freedom to differentiate the models further than a simple hl is okay. It has been done in the past by many car companies. However, there is something wrong when its compared to things which it isnt.

TheSailor - 6/9/2008 11:18:25 AMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

That just makes it that much more ridiculous! Why not just call it the LS500h then?! Uhh - I KNOW: Because then they would have an even harder time trying to pass it off as a competitor to the S600 which was what they were aiming at! Can't you see just how bad they're trying to pass it off as something it isn't! It is like walking around in a cheap Armani knock off! It might look the part, but it's still just a pretender!

And it is even more stupid with the other cars you mentioned! The GS450h doesn't make any sence at all! The nearest competitors to it is the BMW 535d, the Audi A6 3.0 TDI and the E320 D... And in the US, it really can't be compared to the germans, because it is trying to go up against cars like the 550i, the A6 4.2 and the E550... And it is far inferior to those in performance! And don't give me the MPG crap, because if you really care about that, you won't buy a car of that size in the first place!
And the RX400h is just even more out of place! Why not call them the LS500h, the GS350h and the RX330h... That would make it much clearer to people what it is they've actually bought!

85bmw745i - 6/10/2008 4:01:36 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I think the numbers equate to the combined power being equal to a 6.0l engine, or a 4.0 in the case of the rx or a 4.5 in the gs. Back in the 80's BMW did this with the turbocharged 745i. It was a turbocharged version of the 735i, and running 6psi of boost equated to the theoretical output of a naturally aspirated 4.5l engine. I have a feeling this is what lexus is doing. just like the 335 is a 3.0 but the 300hp is theoretical output of a tuned 3.5l inline 6.

85bmw745i - 6/10/2008 5:44:15 PMView My AgentSpace

+2 Boost

Yeah sailor I hear ya on the knock off armani. I see people with Armani exchange shirts swearing it's real Armani, kinda like people wearing U.S. Polo association shirts saying "this is Polo" I say "no it's not, Ralph Lauren makes Polo, this is a knock off' Okay I'm getting off of the subject matter here but I had to say it.

EvoAudi - 6/8/2008 5:59:53 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

No, just No. A8 W12 is best for luxury, S63/S8 for perfomance luxury.

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Willis - 6/8/2008 6:21:56 PM

0 Boost

In all honesty as impressive as this car tries to be it is still a marketing gimmick. Someone explain to me how this heavy and frankly overpowered car is classified as green? When the electric motor isn't running the gas-guzzling V8 takes over and has to haul this heavy car from A to B. Sorry, but good fuel economy? Huh?

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LexusKindaGuy12 - 6/8/2008 7:00:27 PM

-2 Boost

fuel efficiency does not define green.

the fact that it qualifies as a SULEV vehicle is good enough.

and also 20/22 from a 438 horsepower engine is also an accomplishment. my RX330 w ith 230 gets 18

Willis - 6/8/2008 7:37:17 PM

+5 Boost

Fuel efficiency is a major aspect of being "green". A thirsty car like the LS600h might be classified as SULEV but its poor fuel economy doesn't make it a green car.

Like I said, this car is a marketing gimmick. I would rather be seen in an LS460, a car that doesn't pretend to be green.

nvme - 6/9/2008 1:41:52 AM

+1 Boost

SULEV: S? Ultra Low Emissions Vehicle!
one major emmission of cars is CO2 which is produced by the burning of fuel, so mileage is in fact very closely related to "greenness"
the LS600 is undoubtedly a good car, but more of a marketing strategy (which in no way is a bad thing), and an effort in the process of saving the planet, but obviously not such a good one based on the amount of bad reviews it got.

PS:in the article, "the LS doesn't announce i have a huge wallet" how's that exactly, when it costs very nearly the same as the other competitors...?

LexusKindaGuy12 - 6/9/2008 3:07:30 AM

+2 Boost

sulev stands for: Super ultra low emissions vehicle which is classified as 70% less smorg forming emissions than its competitors.

TheSailor - 6/9/2008 10:43:03 AMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

SULEV mainly deals with HC-fractions, NOx and CO in the exhaust... HC (hydrocarbons) and CO is due to unburnt or only partly burned fuel. SULEV is just something the lobbyists invented to sell big cars that aren't really green! And actually, this sulev-classification is just bs! In europe, you can't get a car approved for use if there is any HC in the exhaust gas AT ALL! The entire american car industry had a hard time understanding this in the mid and late nineties making american cars on european roads an extremely rare sight because their engines were so crude and unrefined that they spewed out raw gasoline! Now the car lobbyists in the US is using the exact same crap to sell hybrids?!? And then there is the NOx... Well... That isn't really an issue with gasoline cars. And finally, CO... If you have a well-tuned engine, it won't produce any CO anyway... Modern engines have very little to no CO-output anyway...

SULEV HOWEVER, doesn't have anything to do with the big culprit here; CO2. And that is because Hybrids will spew out exactly as much CO2 as the next car with the same mileage! CO2 is directly proportional to the amount of fuel burnt!

So you can put SULEV where the sun never shine! The only proper way to class cars is according to their CO2-outlet! Then you can have some secondary classification according to all the other crap it spews out (which is negligible amounts compared to CO2 anyway).

So what was it you were saying about how clean the LS is?!

JUGNU - 6/8/2008 6:52:03 PMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

Whatever people say. LS600hL looks great. I think it looks best in the class followed closely by S class.

JUGNU

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w209w114 - 6/8/2008 11:55:23 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Do they currently have the Lexus LS600hl in the Middle East?Im not trying to be a jerk or anything. Its just that comments like that make me question the credibility of your statements

LexusKindaGuy12 - 6/9/2008 3:08:27 AM

0 Boost

remember, this generation LS is what lexus called the global flagship sedan. it is available everywhere they sell lexus

huu76 - 6/8/2008 8:32:11 PM

0 Boost

Lexus accomplishes with 8 cylinders what the Germans need 12 to do.

LS600hl uses 16 barrels of oil a year and has a carbon footprint score of 8.7 (20/22/21mpg)
The S600 uses 24 barrels and scores 14 and 11/17/14mpg).
A8L 22 barrels and scores 12 (13/19/15mpg).
BMW 760Li 22 barrels and scores 12 (13/20/15mpg)
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.htm

The regular A8 is 16/23/18mpg and 22 barrels.
Just for fun, here are the 6 cylinder 528i's numbers.
17 barrels and 9.2 score. (18/28/21mpg)
LS600hL looks pretty green to me (even a little greener than the LS460).

A marketing gimmick is a vehicle that's advertised as hydrogen but runs on gasoline.

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Threepoint1415926 - 6/8/2008 11:22:06 PM

+5 Boost

Your post made absolutely no sense. You tell us that the LS accomplishes with 8 cylinders what the Germans need 12 to do? What exactly is it accomplishing that requires a German V12 to compete?

w209w114 - 6/9/2008 12:02:51 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

Whoever said that 12 cylinder cars need to be efficient? Nobody every asked for this car. The point is the comparison is strictly erroneous because the car IS NOT a 12 cylinder car MEANING: It lacks 4 more cylinders, thats an additional 50% of its current engine to put it in perspective. Its amazing to see just how far people feed into these marketing stunts.

Soon enough Lexus will say "Hey, Lets call it a V16" and some people will actually see it as such

ChicaneShooter - 6/9/2008 4:22:56 AM

-3 Boost

just about all v12 sedans are bought ONLY for BRAGGING rights. most have v8 siblings that crank out about the same or even more horsepower. the 12s may have a bit more low end torque, so on tip in, it FEELS more powerful just because of all the effortless torque WITHOUT the higher rpms.

with the MAXIMUM TORQUE from ZERO rpm of the electric motor, AND the high efficiency 460 v8, the LS will indeed provide the 'effortless feel' and unflustered PUSH of a v12.

AND it IS GREENER than all its competitors, as Huu points out.

Willis - 6/9/2008 7:10:36 AM

+1 Boost

Oh please, here we have the BS "it's greener than its competitors" hype again. The Germans don't market their V12's as "green cars".

The way I see it Lexus simply is targeting the German top V12 sedans in its marketing with its LS600h in order to "appear green" with the whole hybrid hype. Anyone buying an LS600h thinking they're doing something for the environment is kidding themselves.

TheSailor - 6/9/2008 11:34:39 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

If you care so much about the environment, you won't buy one of these cars in the first place! The reason why people buy these V12-cars is because they are looking for a smooth ride ALL the time, and it doesn't come any smoother than a V12.

Ohh, and Huuey - You are forgetting that all those tests are scewed by the fact that when hybrids are tested for mileage, they are tested with full batteries which is an ideal and very rare situation! It is the manufacturers way to fool the EPA. That is also why you see people having such a hard time getting the claimed mileages in their hybrids, while people in diesel car easily exceed their ratings! That is also why they get so lousy highway mileage compared to the urban... Haven't we been over this before?! The power for those batteries have to come from somewhere, and that somewhere is the engine. So you only gain what is lost during standstill and braking! So if you do anything but stop and go traffic, you won't have any use of the batteries! And if you do stop and go traffic all the time, you'll run out of juice pretty fast and the engine will start to recharge the engine. And in that case, it is only the loss in the drive train you gain, minus what is lost in the switchgear and the generator (A generator is usually less than 95% efficient meaning a loss of atleast 5%)... And then you have inverter loss... So in a real life situation where you do combined driving, the actual increase in mileage because of the hybrid drive will be negligible! And this have been backed up by numerous magazine tests and lots and lots of online stories!
An interesting experiment would be to remove the batteries and the hybrid drive from a prius and see what kind of mileage it would get then! My guess would be at least the same! And lets not forget that the BMW efficient dynamics cars give you similar, if not better, mileage while outperforming comparable Lexus/Toyota hybrids! The only Toyota hybrid which does achieve an impressive mileage is the Prius, but I really don't believe that that is because of the hybrid-drive!

Htay7500 - 6/9/2008 11:47:59 AM

0 Boost

if I wanted to get around the urban areas of DC (which I do usually) without getting stuck in traffic, I'll take my mass transit as usual over that hybrid.

TheSailor - 6/9/2008 3:57:48 PMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

HTAY... You have your own personal transportation system?! I didn't think people knew how to use public transport in the US :D

Htay7500 - 6/9/2008 5:01:11 PM

+1 Boost

well lets see, my new place requires me to walk 25-30 minutes to the closest metro stop. I prefer my old place which was just a 5-10 minute walk. getting to where I'm going (twinbrook to Bethesda for you locals) is about 10 minutes then a walk to the city. being in metro washington dc roadways (during rush hr)can be frustrating and I'm very impatient in a traffic jam.

tip to Washington DC visitors: DON'T GO TO NORTHEAST OR SOUTHEAST W/O SELF-DEFENSE! AND TAKE THE METRO ON WEEKDAYS (read my earlier rant)

Htay7500 - 6/9/2008 5:02:38 PM

+1 Boost

"I didn't think people knew how to use public transport in the US :D"

it sucks, but its the quickest way to get around. :]

EL34 - 6/8/2008 9:51:53 PM

-6 Boost

The LS600 will be on the cover of BlimpMobile.

All the other cars will be in Automobile :-\

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hao420 - 6/9/2008 12:32:45 AM

+1 Boost

Wa,that's the way blind people talking above.....

MunichRob - 6/9/2008 5:33:38 AMView My AgentSpace

+4 Boost

"huu76" The majority of people who buy the LS600 are ego-maniacs who want the superior badge regardless of whether or not it's even worth it.

The LS600 is slower than all of its V-12 competitors which makes it an even harder sell, anyone looking for a V-12 sedan isn't going to consider a slower similar priced V-8 sedan just for its gas mileage.

Honestly though if you prefer having a Hybrid powered & labeled sedan over a V-12 powered & labeled sedan, you simply have to question your auto-enthusiasm.

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ABONHONareHT - 6/9/2008 8:22:21 AM

+1 Boost

I think everyone who buys a car in this segment including the Lexus has some of ego issue. No one really needs a vehicle of this capacity. To justify the capacity of their ego? Maybe. At the end of the day, you'll still be whingeing about how much petrol you spent to fill the tank.

From an automotive architectural POV, the Lexus is stunning.

ChicaneShooter - 6/9/2008 8:40:42 PM

0 Boost

"I think everyone who buys a car in this segment including the Lexus has some of ego issue. No one really needs a vehicle of this capacity. To justify the capacity of their ego? Maybe."

EXACTLY. NO ONE buys these cars to be green. OR for performance. (except overage boy racers.)

the LS600 still will an EXCLUSIVE ADVANTAGE appealing to the Early Adapter types who are always interested in the BEST and LATEST in TECHNOLOGY.

ChicaneShooter - 6/9/2008 8:50:22 PM

+1 Boost

...will still have

JUGNU - 6/9/2008 6:37:41 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

W209

Just shut up. What's your problem if to my eyes LS600hL looks better than the S550(S600 looks the same).

and yes u r right, LS600hL is still not officially sold here in Middle East. Dealers are thinking about it. And from Last month onward i heard Futtaim Motors(Toyota and Lexus delaer in UAE) can bring one for a coustomer who gives an order.

But stil there are quite a few LS600hL in UAE. I have seen two till now with one black colour LS600hL standing in the neighbouring Showroom imported from USA.

If u think S500 looks better, fine. But don't say "make me question the credibility of your statements" if i think LS600hL looks better.

JUGNU

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pushrod27 - 6/9/2008 7:58:39 AM

0 Boost

anyone who would say thst the LS's bland reinterpretation of the A8 and 5-series' styling is best in class lacks credibility, or eyes.

it's avery nice looking car, but it basically looks like a swollen Camry with BMW envy.

w209w114 - 6/9/2008 11:20:00 AMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

"What's your problem if to my eyes LS600hL looks better than the S550(S600 looks the same)"

The S550 has a 5.5 litre, 382 horsepower V-8 coupled with a 7 speed auto transmission, weighing 4465lbs and running 0-60 in 5.4 sec. for $87,575

The S600 has a 5.5 litre, 510 H.P., Bi-turbo, V-12 with a 5 speed auto, weighing 4960lbs and shooting 0-60 in 4.5 sec.for $145,075. It also has more standard features and options, such as more expensive interior craftsmanship, incredibly different suspension, balancing, and more powerful brakes.

Again, statements like the one above make us all question your credibility. If we examine all of the things youve said so far we just may find that youre the one that needs to shut up.

MunichRob - 6/9/2008 9:25:05 AMView My AgentSpace

-2 Boost

"JUGNU" it's not your fault, there are Lexus haters aplenty on this site but it's for good reason. It's not Lexus but the Lexus fan boys that bring a bad name to the point that anything positive said about Lexus, falls under major scrutiny by other users.

I for one don't agree with your comment as I see the S-Class as the better looking vehicle, nonetheless I respect your opinion & even gave you a little boost.

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ChicaneShooter - 6/9/2008 9:00:23 PM

-2 Boost

LOL! what you say is somewhat true.

BUT...have you considered the FACT that a lot germy fan bois also CAUSE lexus fans to extend their dislike of the FAN's to the cars themselves?

JUSTIFIABLY, considering TOYOTAs as well as Lexi have far superior reliability, and the hybrid models ALSO display far more TECHNICAL ACHIEVEMENT?

lexusrox123 - 6/9/2008 1:32:33 PM

+2 Boost

yawn....same old flame war as always...gets old, you know?

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JUGNU - 6/9/2008 1:45:22 PMView My AgentSpace

+5 Boost

MuichRob
Thanks u understood my point. U think S class looks better. Fine. I also respect your opinion.
(On differnt note, in my family all love new S class, so much more than the LS. With my Brother currently driving a S500 AMG package. Only i think LS looks better than S)

W209

Why u r so upset? i just said, to me LS600hL looks better than the S class. Why are u stretching it so much and saying stupid things like 'i question your credibility'...etc. Why?

i just said "S600 looks the same" mean S600 looks same as S500(S550 in USA). I know it's got different powertrain, price...etc.

JUGNU

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S4cabriofoxone - 6/9/2008 2:58:56 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I can understand why you like the LS better, because when it's equipped with the right rims (NOT the standard, boring wheels) it's a very sleek, modern sedan. The S is chunkier, but when outfitted with the AMG pack it really looks fantastic.

huu76 - 6/9/2008 9:23:52 PM

+1 Boost

Munichbob,
Why get 12cylinders when you can do the same with 8?
People may not be buying the LS600hL to save the planet, but it doesn't mean Toyota can't do it anyway as an added bonus.
The S600 is the only car that's faster, the LSh, 760Li and A8L all have pretty much identical performance.

Thesailor,
Why do the Germans always brag that their V8 and V10 diesels are so good for the env't if nobody buys it for the env't? Sounds to me the Germans just can't take being shown up again.
The LS600hL is even cleaner than some junky 528i.

w209,
Lexus could have used 12 cylinders but they knew 8 would be enough to beat the Germans.

Willis,
How green is the V12 Hydrogen7? BMW brags how clean this car is eventhough people who have it right now probably only put gasoline in, in which case it beomes a really inefficient V12.

threeopoint,
The LS accomplishes near V6 economy while cranking out performance equal to the V12s. That simplified enough for you?
Since BMW is supposed to have the best engines.
750i 0-60 in 6.1sec (15/23/18mpg
760Li 0-60 in 5.5 (13/20/15mpg)
LS600hL 0-60 in 5.5 (20/22/21mpg)
535i (turbo) 0-60 5.5sec (17/26/20mpg)
V12 performance, V6 efficiency, V6 emissions and green as the envy on the German's faces.
This is what the LS600hL accomplishes with 8 cylinders that the Germans need 12 for.

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Threepoint1415926 - 6/9/2008 10:55:39 PM

-2 Boost

I can always count on you to give fallacious arguments. I think this time it was somewhere between a red herring and straw man. What's this crap "Since BMW is suppose to have the best engines"??? You deliberately pick the OLDEST most OUTDATED V12 in the German lineup knowing full well that the LS600hL doesn't compete against anything else. Oh, and thanks for the ad hominem again... I'm beginning to love those as well.

S600 0-60 4.2
S550 0-60 5.6
LS600hL 0-60 5.6

Looks to me like it takes Lexus an electric motor + a V8 to accomplish what a German can accomplish with a V8 alone. Simplified enough for you? Any talk that says the LS600hL is in the same league as a V12 ought not to be compared against anything but the outdated BMW power plant.

StickShiftCamry - 6/9/2008 11:40:22 PM

0 Boost

But same acceleration and Higher Gas Mileage.

TheSailor - 6/10/2008 10:00:43 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Que?! Can you show me one advertisement or article where a german car company claims to have an green V8 or V10 anything?! I know they don't in europe! However Lexus are running lots of ads in europe about how the LS600hL is cleaner than any of the competitors... Which it isn't in normal use (i.e. Where the battery haven't been pre-charged to scew numbers)! If you want a car of this size and you need to drive around cities or on the highway alot, you might as well buy an S320 CDi! Or maybe a 730D Or an A8 3.0 TDI or maybe a Lexus LS... ohh wait... Lexus doesn't build an LS with a sort of sensible engine! Who would have guessed?! The "green" luxury car company doesn't have a flagship model with an actual "green" engine which doesn't consume more fuel than a small african country could burn in a month! And yes yes, the smaller engined models doesn't have the same "prestige as the top of the range (neither does a V8 with schizophrenia that thinks it's a V12)... But who will ever know except you? And the only way you'll know is because it isn't quite as fast! You can have the small diesel versions with all the same equipment as the top of the range, and at half the price! You can even get a 730Ld if that is what you want! So if you want to get good mileage, buy a smaller engine, if you want the ultimate, buy a V12!

S4cabriofoxone - 6/11/2008 1:13:00 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

"Why get 12cylinders when you can do the same with 8?"

That's the thing you seem to forget very often--IT CAN'T. THIS CAR DOES NOT MATCH THE 12-CYLINDER MERCEDES-BENZ S600 OR AUDI A8L W12 IN PERFORMANCE. CASE CLOSED.

"The S600 is the only car that's faster, the LSh, 760Li and A8L all have pretty much identical performance."

WRONG. THE A8 IS ALMOST A FULL SECOND QUICKER.

"The LS accomplishes near V6 economy while cranking out performance equal to the V12s. "

What???

It gets 20MPG. A six-cylinder LS (LS350?) would get about 25MPG. I love that you compared its performance to the slowest twelve-cylinder sedan on the market (760), but compared to the other two that you always seem to forget, it's a slow poke. Also, the new 760 will feature a bi-turbo V12 that will blow the LSh's performance away, while achieving similar fuel efficiency to the current model.

bimmerfan25 - 6/9/2008 10:19:18 PM

+2 Boost

I don't understand this whole argument about the price increase of the LS600h compared to the LS460 not being justified.

how can you justify the S600 costing like $60,000 more than the S550?

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S4cabriofoxone - 6/11/2008 1:13:53 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Because it's over 1 second quicker from 0-60mph, and has every single feature on the S550 as standard equipment. A loaded S550 pushes $120K. $140K doesn't sound like a bad increase for the engine.

huu76 - 6/10/2008 12:15:42 AM

-1 Boost

threepoint,
The S600 is a 5.5L V12. You're thinking of the V8 S63. I made the same mistake a few months back.
http://www.mercedes-benz.ca/index.cfm?id=4044
There's also the S65 AMG V12 bi-turbo model which just flies, but it better be for a juiced 6L engine.

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Threepoint1415926 - 6/10/2008 1:23:52 PM

+2 Boost

You're right, I'm thinking of the S600 V12! A V12 is what you like to compare the Lexus to, not a V8. I made absolutely no mistake. The S550 V8 has the same acceleration as a Lexus V8 + electric motor. Stop trying to confuse readers into believing you.

huu76 - 6/10/2008 12:24:48 AM

-2 Boost

threepoint,
If BMW is too old, here's the A8L W12 from 2005 (probably not much changed).
0-60 5.8sec and 15/21mpg.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Followup/articleId=106174/pageId=64463

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Threepoint1415926 - 6/10/2008 1:44:46 PM

+3 Boost

There you go picking the slowest times again. Road and Track, Automobile and Audi themselves can get the job done in 5 flat.

http://car-reviews.automobile.com/Audi/review/2007-audi-a8-l-w12-road-test/5358/

huu76 - 6/10/2008 12:32:56 AM

-1 Boost

I never said the S600 wasn't faster. However, I also forgot to mention that the S600 is a V12 bi-turbo as well.

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quizz - 6/10/2008 1:15:33 AM

+4 Boost

The purpose of getting the S Class is to establish your identity - leave your mark as you drive by and announce to the world "I've made it". Here's the test: if you were about to pick up a very important business client from the airport, would you show up in the latest S-Class or LS?

Gotta show up in the S Class.

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ChicaneShooter - 6/10/2008 1:47:17 AM

-2 Boost

depends who the client is. the S represents, conservative, STODGY, been around awhile. MAYBE some clients favor that.

the LS represents FRESH, new, INNOVATIVE. also less COMMON, more exclusive. methinks many clients will be impressed MORE by these subtle messages.

Htay7500 - 6/10/2008 11:02:19 AM

+2 Boost

as I could care less about this segment, I don't know what you mean by the LS as "innovative" but the history of the S-class has more innovations than mostly any car in its class. the LS isn't a bad car, but people tend to overrated in sich an ignorant way.

Agent63 - 6/10/2008 5:27:28 AMView My AgentSpace

+3 Boost

This thread was intended for the fan boys to attack the Germans and start yet ANOTHER flame war. That's what it was. It keeps this site interesting and I have to admit it does.

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ChicaneShooter - 6/15/2008 4:08:06 AM

+1 Boost

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