00JT
	View My AgentPage

53

Why the Germans think Lexus isn't a true competitor

00JT submitted on 08/26/2006 Official AutoSpies Timestamp: 4:53 PM
from: www.autospies.com

[178] user comments | category: Reviews

Print this Page | Digg It | del.icio.us

Tags: Lexus German Snob Appeal Heritage

Tag Link: Lexus German Snob Appeal Heritage

Why the Germans think Lexus isn't a true competitor

Comments:

Images hosted in your AgentSpace can now be posted in the comments section using the following syntax (case matters):
[img]IMAGE URL[/img]
Example: [img]http://agent004.myautospies.com/users/150/Sample-Gallery/sample1.JPG[/img]

iamdabest1 - 8/26/2006 9:51:24 PMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

I drive a 2005 BMW m3 coupe. I think that anyone who thinks that Lexus, Infiniti or even Acura doesnt steal some sales from German manufacturers is wrong. Ill admit it does bother me to see the Japanese catch up, but on the other hand, if not for the Japanese, the Germans wouldnt have to try as hard, so all the competition is excellent. Let them all try to beat eachother and win over consumers. In the end, we the buyers win. As of right now I feel Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Porsche and Jaguar are all in one class and do have different types of buyers. Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, Lincoln and Cadillac in the other tier. Once Lexus releases the LS600 which will dierectly compete with Mercedes S class and BMW 7 series I think they will be the ones to beat though since that car is usually driven by males over the age of 55. Remember most 55 year olds want a smooth quiet ride and dont care all that much about taking turns at 80mph. Lexus will probably be alittle cheaper, offer more options softer ride and be more reliable.

reply to this comment

SixxFive - 8/26/2006 10:22:41 PM

+1 Boost

00JT: your summation that German cars are only purchased for snob appeal is very simplistic and narrow minded of you.

reply to this comment

lexusis350 - 8/26/2006 11:12:33 PM

+2 Boost

German car fans all know deep down that Lexus can, and eventually will, overpass everything Mercedes, BMW, Audi, and Jaguar are famous for. Lexus doesn't struggle to keep up with the competition, the competition struggles to keep up with Lexus. No one can deny this. You can say what you want about this, German fans, but you know it's true.

reply to this comment

mstangpny07 - 8/26/2006 11:14:49 PMView My AgentSpace

-3 Boost

"Dual Chamber airbag/ (German fan reply) "copied""
FYI the Dual Chamber airbag first appeared in the Ford Explorer.....
-
"Lexus is a competitor to the Germans, just in a different way.©"-mspangpny07
There I copyrighted my statement because it's true. :)
-
Who really cares?
The Lexus people can drive their Lexuses, and Audi people can drive their Audis, the BMW people can drive their BMWs, and the Chevy people can drive their friend's Ford because they broke down.
But then Autospies wouldn't be fun. ;)

reply to this comment

Matthew1 - 8/26/2006 11:15:57 PM

0 Boost

Snob appeal doesn't make German cars any less good.

And I don't think heritage OR snob appeal is the reason for purchasing a German car.

I think design, performance and engineering excellence are the reasons.

You are stereotyping AND making stuff up.

Not a good look.

reply to this comment

lexusis350 - 8/26/2006 11:17:20 PM

+3 Boost

^
Yeah, but then the dual chamber airbag on the Explorer dissapeared.

reply to this comment

Matthew1 - 8/26/2006 11:25:52 PM

0 Boost

What?

reply to this comment

TheGenius - 8/26/2006 11:45:30 PM

0 Boost

Anybody who says Lexus isn't a good car is just a joker. Lexus make good cars, but lack of Heritage is just one problem, and a temporary one. In 70 years time when most of today's Geman car lovers will have died off, and the current generation who grew up with the Lexus name are writing the checks, no one will care that much. Good thing I'll be dead by then.. ha ha.. Just kidding! Lets forget about copying, and look at the real issues. The other handicaps are below:

1) Handling. Lexus cars are designed for smooth quiet cruising, slalom forget it, curves? you must be dreaming! I've driven today's so-called sports lexus (GS and IS). With more power they feel more interesting than they used to, but there's really nothing sporty about them, and you can't help but notice many of their shortcomings when you've driven a lot of cars, especially the Germans. The IS and GS should just be passed off as generic luxury cars.. Pick up "any" german car, and you'll get some level of decent handling
2) Styling - Which Lexus on the road today did you see and drool over? ..Wow, what a beautiful car.. None! Styling has historically been prosaic and tired looking, and from the looks of the new LS460, its very clear that the trend will continue.. A lot of work is required here.. a lot.

3) Feedback / Character - This is perhaps worse than the poor styling. Lifeless Steering, spongy handling, can't tell what's going on with the car, lack of seat of the pants excitement are all standard equipment. Lexus may be great if you don't care about cornering and will do no more than 40mph when it rains (which applies to a number of people). However, those won't work for me and a lot of others who buy German cars. One quick point though..I'm yet to see any Infinity / Nissan lovers express themselves on this site.. I think they do a much better job than Lexus when it comes to handling and styling.. Lets face reality, anybody who says Lexus has great styling, handling, and feedback is simply a clown. However, with Nissan / Infinity, I can actually have an intelligent discussion without laughing.
But back to Heritage since that's really the title of the post. In prior posts I've seen people struggle to understand why that's important, and that's ok. It ironic, but after all anybody who really understood it and thought it was important wouldn't touch a Lexus with a long fork. Here's the way it works.. If you want a dog that will win the Westminster dog show, you don't start with a wretched, flea infested mongrel who's head or front legs you can't see because its half-way embedded in garbarge at the city land fill. No! You go to a breeder with a clear tangible record of producing winners year in year out... And if a new breeder opens shop and swears they'll give you a cheaper dog, you wait until they develop something tangible before you jump ship. I'm watching and waiting....

reply to this comment

Jacob - 8/26/2006 11:46:37 PM

+6 Boost

I think that all this nonsense should stop. Lexus fans, German fans will never respect you simply because Lexus is not German. German fans Lexus fans will never respect you because of the same reason. It does not have to be this way but unfortunately it is. Why can't both sides just respect each other and just acknowlege that both sides make perfectly fine cars and that both sides have different strengths and weaknesses?

reply to this comment

1995e34 - 8/26/2006 11:48:38 PM

+1 Boost

lexus does copy. but good for them. it happens in all industry. how bout the pharmaceutical industry? if we bitched about one company copying the other, generic drugs would not be available, and as expensive as medicine is, it would be much worse without generics. (i know some on this website have a REAL healthcare system and it's a whole different story.)

now lexus is not completely generic versions of german cars, but i can surely think of a few german cars they reverse engineered. look at the original lexus ls400. a great car. but it has long been considered a copy of the mercedes w-124 chassis, which went under the 300e/400e/500e/e320/e420 (01/85-06/96).

in fact it was so envied a platform, that a korean company is still producing autos with w-124 chassis rebadged.

i think a lot of german cars ARE bought for snob appeal. but i think its absolute garbage to even think that MOST are bought for snob appeal. being classy and having expensive toys are not synonimous.

reply to this comment

00JT - 8/26/2006 11:57:34 PM

+1 Boost

Jacob,

Oh I wish it were that simple.

reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 12:04:59 AM

+1 Boost

SixxFive and 1995e34,

I never said that ALL German cars that were purchased based on snob appeal.

Mstangpny07,

Even if the dual chamber airbag debuted first on the Explorer, my point is: Does it really matter? At the end the consumer benefits by having an advanced product that is designed to enhance safety.

reply to this comment

answer - 8/27/2006 12:11:48 AMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

Most BMWs and Mercedes are bought for snob appeal.

The average buyer doesn't give a crap about the engineering or technology, unless it is a daily used feature or something that can be shown to others readily. How many ML buyers know their vehicle was made in Alabama? What is the percentage of 7 series owners who have a clue as to what the Nurburging is?

The German car companies (and their fans) think Lexus is not a true competitor for one simple reason. It helps them sleep better at night.


reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 12:20:47 AM

+1 Boost

Matthew,

"You are stereotyping AND making stuff up."

Am I? Look at any heated Lexus vs German car debate and I assure you "heritage" and "Lexus copies" are brought up many times.

reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 12:26:35 AM

+1 Boost

1995e34,

"It ironic, but after all anybody who really understood it (heritage) and thought it was important wouldn't touch a Lexus with a long fork. Here's the way it works.. If you want a dog that will win the Westminster dog show, you don't start with a wretched, flea infested mongrel who's head or front legs you can't see because its half-way embedded in garbarge at the city land fill."

Thats a bit unfair. Parent company Toyota had already made a pretty good name for themselves as being a blue collar brand. It's not like as if the now defunct Daewoo were to spawn their very own luxury devision.



reply to this comment

1995e34 - 8/27/2006 12:38:27 AM

+1 Boost

the 300e was great, but when they upgraded that i-6 to dohc for the 300ce, and eventually e320, it was so strong and smooth. many have regaurded the 300e as the best mb ever built.

but i still long for the 500e (porsche collaboration). what a beauty.

i think the people looking for snob appeal are actually more like to buy the lexus. it's like the people who wanna impress a girl by bringing her to red lobster or olive garden rather than a real restaraunt.


reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 12:50:41 AM

0 Boost

1995e34,

"i think the people looking for snob appeal are actually more like to buy the lexus.

How is that? Lexus fans don't brag about heritage because Lexus has yet to make a name for themselves worldwide.

If not for the name why would someone purchase the Mercedes C350 over the Lexus IS350?

Lexus is more powerful
Has more features for the money
Performs better
Less expensive overall by 3k

Trust me, a lot of people would be less inclined to pay 38k for the C350 if it wasn't a Mercedes. Would you pay 38k for a rwd Hyundai that has 268 hp and offers as many features as the C350? See what I mean? Take away the name and there is little reason to buy the C Class.

reply to this comment

lexusis350 - 8/27/2006 12:57:06 AM

+1 Boost

That's because Mercedes-Benz is an "IT" car. That basically means that celebrities have a car one year that is an "IT" car that everyone must have. For instance, three years ago, it was a Mercedes G-class, and two years ago it was a Land Rover Range Rover, this year it's a Bentley Continental GT. Pretty much, Mercedes has made money from these "Posers" because they can't think for themselves.

reply to this comment

Matthew1 - 8/27/2006 1:03:08 AM

+2 Boost

Or maybe Linsay Lohan appreciates the mountain-moving torque and finesse of her windscreen wipers on her SL65?

Give the celeb's some credit.

reply to this comment

tekknikal - 8/27/2006 1:12:54 AM

0 Boost

Doesn't matter.
The LF-A will still own the M6.
The GT-R will still own the M3.

I dont think anyone can doubt that.
As far as mainstream cars go, The ES and IS currently outsell the 3 series. Machine-design wise, BMW may be better, but they cant build cars very well, and they overvalue thier cars. This will be their downfall.

reply to this comment

1995e34 - 8/27/2006 1:17:15 AM

+1 Boost

00JT, i would drive a rwd hyundai, but not for that price. i prefer the c350 over the is350 because the lexus looks like an entry level mazda. its just not as tasteful. if i were in market for a $35k sedan, i would certainly test drive the lexus, and would possibly buy it out of curiosity. i'd prefer to have the option to buy it as a toyota altezza though.

Will, what made that 300e the last benz you owned if you liked it as you did? those 300e's were just so solid. the sound of closing a door was like a vault closing.

reply to this comment

EL34 - 8/27/2006 1:18:09 AM

0 Boost

Toy/Lex should be compared to Cadillac and not to MB, BMW or Audi.

Let's get that straight.

I've never seen a Lexus that I truly can say I thought had good styling.

I'm sorry, but that's the way I feel.

reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 1:25:44 AM

+1 Boost

1995e34,

Right, the reason people are willing to pay 38k for the C Class is because it's a Mercedes. If the C Class was under a lower-branded manufactor, the car would not be able to justify the 38k sticker.

reply to this comment

F12TwinTurbo - 8/27/2006 1:55:11 AM

+1 Boost

okay lexus not bad car, maybe vs. 3series/A4/c-klasse maybe even 5series/A6/E-klasse... a few nice SUVs by Lexus, a few nice entry/Mid level luxury sports sedan. but when u say "German competition"...Lexus vs Porsche GT3, GT2, 911Turbo/S...
Maybachs/ Conti GT/ Lambos/ M6...not to mention 15 different AMG - klasse Mercedes
Lexus = Competition for German in specific sector, in specific Market(US)... but overall . NO WAY

reply to this comment

huu76 - 8/27/2006 3:23:08 AM

+1 Boost

Damn. I was going to stay out of this, but oh well, the more the merrier.

Foxy,
ES and IS split sales because they're designed to do different things. Both are entry-level lux, same as 3-series. Whether you should combine sales or not is debatable, but I would since they're in the same price range and 3-series competes against both.

IS and Altezza are no longer the same car. Do they even sell the Altezza anymore?

The RX will outlux the X5. The GX/4Runner will out rumble the new GL. Probably not the old G-wagon, but the GL definitely isn't the G.

Will,
I personally think the SC is ugly, and Bangle's design is based off of the SC's rear. Compare the back end of those ads on this site vs. the Bangle butt. Almost the same.

Can someone remind me who invented the cute-ute and Luxury crossover segments that the X-class competes in? Oh yeah, Toyota.

reply to this comment

1995e34 - 8/27/2006 3:37:16 AM

+1 Boost

the lexus syles i liked most were the original ls400, the original gs300, 2nd. gen gs, original sc, and original is300. i think their style has not improved. i have not a question about their build quality. theres just nothing they produce that i don't see a better alternative to at bmw or mercedes.

reply to this comment

vcowman - 8/27/2006 4:20:55 AM

0 Boost

efoxS4 --

It is absolutely true that BM and MB designs are evergreen while others are not. Many cars from the 80s still look good compared to what is on the market right now. Eg, 3 series, S Class, etc. 2001 7 series was imo the best looking larger sedan ever produced.

Will--

The reason that German brands are far superior to Japanese (previous Honda owner) is that they are willing to take risks with new design, engine technology, safety, etc while most Japanese brands simply copy them and make it mass market. That is while they may not be as reliable the first year the car comes out, but I would much rather support ideas that are new and move the industry forward rather than is accessible to every consumer possible.

00JT--

There is nothing wrong with the Lexus products per se but when compared to its German rivals is so weak in every aspect (materials, design, technology) that it is not considered a true competitor. BTW, petigree matters as cars are emotional purchases not basic transportation for many people. Hundai Azera may be a great car but most people will not buy it because of its petigree no matter how great the car is, and this is not a bad thing because a brands repuatation is important for most consumers.

reply to this comment

Matthew1 - 8/27/2006 4:34:44 AM

0 Boost

vcowman,

You speak my language.

reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 4:53:56 AM

+1 Boost

vcowman,

On what basis do you think Lexus "materials, design, and technology" is "weak?" Pure bias? I don't know what kind of a Lexus you've been in (if any), but they have one of some of the best interior designs/build quality of any car manufactor. Their reputation for building high quality cars reflect in their high scoring year after year in JD Power and Consumer Reports studies. I defy you to find any respected car magazine article that even breathes the words of Lexus being of subpar or "weak" quality.

The Azera is a good car, and I'd have it over half of its competition in its price class. Including the Buick Lacrosse and Ford Five Hundred.

reply to this comment

DarkOneForce - 8/27/2006 7:47:35 AM

+1 Boost

The problem with Lexus is first and foremost could just be its fanatics suportores who sadly live in their own fantasy world that doesn't have many tangents with relity.

They just don't seem to get it. At least the people who run the company that in many ways the are here thanks to the germans.

First thanks to the fact that the germans proved you can be succesfull in the premium/luxury market despite the adversities.

And second for the fact that they kept copying them. As one jurnalist said, the japs continue to do what they know best copying the germans.
And its obvious, Phaeton front, BMW profile with even
the the traditional BMW Hofmeister kink, and so on, and so on.

And third let's get to the important things.
- image/prestige, outside the USA Lexus is a little known/unknown brand; some of those who know it have bad/negative view about them, like a rebagded Toyota.

- dealers and service, or better said lack of it. Outside of the USA they mostly in Australia, UK (bigest European market), Korea and the rest a few scanted dealers.
Now this means low(er) sales and low(er) retail value.
- production facilities. Compared to the germans, Lexus is small and has limitations as far as production goes.
- models and variants. Compared to the germans they lack a lot of models and variants. Even worse they are late and/or still don't give the people what they want (wagons, hatchbacks, diesels, AWD, manuals, SMG/DSG/7Gtronic).
Lexus survived/thrived in the USA thanks to SUVs, while their cars constantly struggled, however the rest of the world ain't exactly so SUV crazy.


reply to this comment

TheGenius - 8/27/2006 10:23:57 AM

+2 Boost

I 100% agree with the 300E comments..We had a 260E abroad and there was nothing like those 80s Benz when it came to whole package. They were just suberb. I said it before, and I'll say it again.. Lexus has poor styling, shoddy handling, and no feedback. Great to be driven in, but definitely not a driver's car. While their engines hold up very well as they age, build quality falters..After 4 or 5 years, their interiors just don't look as fresh as they did when new, and even the paint finish begins to pale.. You wouldn't even find that on a 5 year old Passat not to mention the big German three. Compare a 10 year old German car to the Lexus, and you'll get it. The Lexus' Engines will be in excellent shape, but the rest of the car will be a different story. My dad's first S-class was a 70s 280, and although it had the perforated leather that I think looks cheap in today's environment, and didn't have electric windows, when I last drove it about 5 years ago before it was given away, I was still impressed with the solidity, and the perfromance from the engine. He also had an 80s 500Sel that has held up very well and still feels like a tank today. The cheap steel / finish (just hit the roof and side panels you'll get it) you find in typical Japanese cars explains why they give you half or less than half of what some of the German manufacturers give you for Corrosion.. Lets face it. Lexus is a good car, but not yet up to par on many fronts..but they will get better

reply to this comment

kart1 - 8/27/2006 11:11:46 AM

+1 Boost

Wow Lexus is really popular here huh? Lexus is not a enthusiasts car, but this is a website for car enthusiasts so it become infamous automatically. If you read the magazines you will see that most of the cars that win comparision test are usually ones that have better performance and drive. So in the end Lexus is popular by default :). I also think that Lexus being as boring as it might be is still competition and a good one. It may not have a hold on the global market but they have the US market now and expanding. It may not be a true competitor in people's minds but it is a solid competitor in reality. Do you guys really think that BMW and MB are just sitting there and saying that Lexus isn't a true competitor? No, they finding ways to kill Lexus before it gets a hold on the international market.

In conclusion Lexus is not a true competitor in terms of how the cars are built (performance luxury vs. luxury only) but they are competitors directly when it comes to brand image. All of you are saying that Lexus isn't a true competitor, because they don't have the performance and innovation, you guys missed one thing. Lexus is giving their customers, not most of the people on this website including me, what they want. Which would be a quiet and luxurious ride. I don't want to go into anything else because those things can go on forever.

Also when buying a car I have one advice - don't buy on prestige only because you are not going to drive prestige you are going to drive a car. Of course some cars give you more prestige, but don't buy a worse car when you can have a better one i.e. C-class vs. 3 series. Also when a car is better it is simply better, just because another car has more prestige that doesn't make the better car loose because it has no prestige.

reply to this comment

answer - 8/27/2006 11:32:30 AMView My AgentSpace

+1 Boost

Um, I think BMW and Mercedes don't pay much attention to Audi because of Audi's over-rated interior design and hideous front end work.

reply to this comment

starfox - 8/27/2006 12:51:32 PM

+2 Boost

Its not only a true competitor but its clearly percieved to be a real threat to the german automakers. Why else would every article on Lexus have more responses, mostly from the german camp, than articles on even their beloved german cars. They have a compulsion to criticise a company that is rising very fast to the top of the industry. It is their last futile attempt to bring it down but it wont happen.

What we must focus on, and appreciate, is how much Lexus is imroving with each generation. What many german fans are perhaps conveniently forgetting is that the very definition of a luxury car means that luxury comes first, everything else second. Lexus recognizes this, and has made the LS with pure luxury in mind. This doesnt mean it cant handle well. To state that it handles like a school bus, as one troll put it, is a laugh. Ofcourse it can handle with competence when needed, but how many 60 yr old ppl are going to be taking sharp corners and pushing the car to its limits? THe answer would be less than 5%. Even the outgoing LS430 handled with panache when pushed hard, and you dont need more than that in a LUXURY car.

reply to this comment

huu76 - 8/27/2006 1:28:55 PM

+1 Boost

Dark,
You say U.S. market isn't the only market, then you say Germans offer what ppl want and Lexus doesn't. Uhhh, you think hatchbacks, wagons and diesels sell very well here? I'd say Germany is just offering them here to get rid of excess capacity. Why don't they built trucks, it's clear the market wants it.

Limitation of production? Where do you think most BMWs/MB are built? They don't have problems getting their cars from Germany to wherever. All but 1 Lexus is built in Japan, same deal. That was a weak and not well thought out argument.

Image is only because old-money Europe is too racist to accept a superior car from a non-white country. Yes, that's what I said. The working class don't have any problems accepting superior Toyotas (ever increasing European sales prove it).

Toyota isn't copying the Germans anymore, that's why they're so upset. Copying gives them legitimacy, which they're losing because their cars are underperforming and nolonger able to backup their marketing claims.

The problem with German cars is that they're too German. In the design stage, they won't acknowledge a defect because they suffer from "Germans are always right" syndrome, hence the junk cars that get released (i.e. BMW). If they were more Japanese, they'd have better cars.

Acuras look like nothing else on the road. Honda's the same. Toyota's have their own look now, as does Lexus. Even the Coreans have stopped copying the Germans and are copying the Japanese now. Sure, everyone copies Germany. Just keep on telling yourself that.

Starfox,
No, the German definition of luxury is "Is it German?" first and nothing else matters. Superimpose a propellor or Star onto the hood or steering wheel and you'll hear them sing praises about it all day long.
It's just being outdone by the competition that they don't like.

reply to this comment

vcowman - 8/27/2006 1:55:05 PM

-1 Boost

I think the point of luxury vs performance luxury is a good one, but if it completely valid, the LS430's true competetion is a Rolls Royce, or perhaps a Lincon Towncar. Even then it fails against competition.

reply to this comment

kart1 - 8/27/2006 2:18:39 PM

+1 Boost

Vcowman Rolls Royce is another class when compared to Lexus, BMW, MB. I mean if it was in the same class why wouldn't MB be directly competing against it? Why would it take out Maybach? About the Town Car that car is not up to par with the 7 series, S class, and LS. I mean how could you compare an LS with a town car. Town car is way back in terms of technology and I'd hate to say it but performance. If you take the new LS it has an 8 speed transmission the Town Car a 4 speed that only the cheapest Toyotas use. The new LS will get 380 hp out of its 4.6l engine while the Town car gets only what 239 hp from the same size. It might match it in terms of ride quality, but even the Lexus beats it in everything esle. Oh by the way a Rolls cost what about 200k and the Town Car cost about 46k.

My point is even though the LS isn't as performance orientated as the 7 and S it is still a competitor to them because that is the closest it gets to anything. If you want to put the LS in the luxury only segment it would have to be ranking -not competition- like this Town Car > LS > Rolls Royce.

The thing with Lexus is that People love their ride but it wouldn't hurt to have a more sporty ride to get more people to buy their cars. But then again whatever works for them. I mean they are still selling their boring cars right?

reply to this comment

1995e34 - 8/27/2006 3:03:37 PM

+1 Boost

mercedes offered fake leather in their 190e and 300e for years. it was called mb-tex. tough as nails, and comfy enough, but not leather. audi offers cloth in some of theirs. i'm sure leather is an option in ALL german manufacturers in europe (correct me if i'm wrong).

reply to this comment

answer - 8/27/2006 3:29:45 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

You can still get some of that cheap MB-tex in several of today's Mercedes models.

But seeing as how some of those "luxury" Mercedes are used as taxis in Europe, I guess the pleather makes sense.

reply to this comment

1995e34 - 8/27/2006 3:39:27 PM

+1 Boost

the pleather REALLY makes sense. most people don't even know the difference. if you can make a synthetic for cheaper and most can't tell difference, then spare the cow!

that mb-tex isn't that cheap unless compared to leather. in fact it is probably comporable to the cheaper leathers used by other manufacturers.

reply to this comment

TheGenius - 8/27/2006 4:05:58 PM

+1 Boost

Logical your statements are illogical. You've obviously never been to Germany. In Germany, Audi is the number #1 Luxury brand, yes..#1. BMW is #2 and Benz #3. Go to Germany if you want to know what Germans think. Try Octoberfest in Munich this year if you want a good time.

Some people seem to like discussing comments they have in their heads as opposed to what's been posted a problem I'm yet to fully understand. Nobody is talking about whether Lexus is a competitor or not because they are, and a very good one too. After all, they re-route some of the dough that traditionally went to the German three to their own bank accounts. A competitor is simply another alternative regardless of the reasons why!! The point of this post is the snob appeal, and as I alluded to earlier snob appeal is just one of the challenges...

Listen, if we didn't have Lexus, I don't think the German three who have competed with each other for years will be as good as they are now. But sorry, I digress, the E-class memories of the 80s were sweet, and that reminds of another sweet ride: the 4 cyclinder M3 from the same period. Noisy, awesome handling, sweet and fast, The gear changes were so short and delicious that if you didn't change up quickly by the redline, the sweet surge was temporarily stopped. Not to mention the original VW GTI 16valve, which I don't think made it to the states. We raced a Merc 380Sel against this little animal on an open road and couldn't believe how quickly the Golf got away until I drove it myself. super sweet, wild and violent shifting. 1st to 2nd and 2nd to third can only be described as extremely tasty.... Those were real cars.. not the utilitarian appliances people hang around in these days.. which brings me back to the Lexus. Very good car, but devoid of character and not pleasing to the eyes..


reply to this comment

1995e34 - 8/27/2006 4:35:53 PM

+1 Boost

while on the 80's german kick, i can't wait to have the spare cash for a 190e 16v cosworth. i've never driven the original m3, but i would get one of them in an instant.

reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 5:08:12 PM

+1 Boost

DarkForceOne,

Typical German car fanatic response. Lexus copies? FYI EVERY automaker copies from another automaker at some point. Why don't we blame Audi and BMW for copying the airbag, ABS brakes, and the car from Mercedes? You are obviously not getting the point. Why does it matter that some other company starts to produce technology that debuted somewhere else? Is it fair to say that ONLY MERCEDES cars can have airbags because they were the ones to invent airbags? Give me a break.

"- image/prestige, outside the USA Lexus is a little known/unknown brand; some of those who know it have bad/negative view about them, like a rebagded Toyota."

Lexus is too new worldwide. However you don't have to have heritage/prestige to build a good car. Lexus can make good cars and there is no denying that. In time they will make their own heritage.



reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 5:09:32 PM

+1 Boost

Starfox,

I couldn't have said it better myself.

reply to this comment

kart1 - 8/27/2006 5:52:05 PM

+1 Boost

24HOJ - I guess you misunderstood what I said about selling boring cars. It wasn't an statement that I made personally it was a sarcastic statment based off of every other person who hates Lexus on this website.

I know what luxury cars are supposed to be but as a buyer I expect a car company to sell me everything, meaning that when I am buying a premium car I want speed, luxury, power, handling, safety, quality, etc. Otherwise I would buy an engine with seats strapped to it :).

reply to this comment

kart1 - 8/27/2006 5:53:06 PM

+1 Boost

Oh yeah I would need wheells and a suspension too.

reply to this comment

audirevolution - 8/27/2006 6:37:21 PM

+1 Boost

I agree that Lexus can make nice cars, but I do not think they are at the same level as the Germans yet. The German competitors are a lot more fun to drive. The only Jap company that comes close to the Germans in handling and fun factor is Infiniti.


reply to this comment

aefsc430 - 8/27/2006 7:51:21 PM

0 Boost

In my opinion, Lexus does have prestige. doesn't catching up with the germans in just a few years give them some well-earned respect?

most of you german fans hate lexus. im a lexus fan and i still like german cars.

reply to this comment

vcowman - 8/27/2006 7:54:55 PM

+2 Boost

I think the snob appeal argument does not really apply because all these cars cost a lot of money. For example, the IS costs a little more than the 3 series and I think its a folly to say they deliver similar driving experiences. I can see how if someone does not want to pay 20k extra for an S Class or a 7 Series that they may buy a LS430 but only if they are not looking for a spirited driving experience. If I am paying 50k I dont mind paying 70 for all the intangibles that come with the german brands. I have personally driven the IS, the GS, and LS and can safely say that the concept of value for getting a similar experience for less money does not exist. Lexus consistantly gets outcalssed in every segement except for the Landcruiser which is an international success.

reply to this comment

vcowman - 8/27/2006 7:58:44 PM

+3 Boost

BTW, I think that many people can get the same comfort oriented experience with a large American car like Towncar, Cadallac, Ford Crown Victoria (Lexus' favourite demographic until last week has been current Buick owners), so truly Lexus is not a true competitor to the German brands.

reply to this comment

vcowman - 8/27/2006 8:08:02 PM

+2 Boost

Grow up, and quit playing the race card to the eariler post saying that Lexus does not get any respect because German car owners are racist, its cause they make bland cars with no character not because the owners hate Japanese people.

reply to this comment

SSP350 - 8/27/2006 8:29:48 PM

-1 Boost

Hey guys,
Just read about this on MSN.com.

"Attention car shoppers. If you aren't satisfied with the gasoline-electric hybrid models now on sale, wait. There will be plenty more available, even a hybrid version of the Porsche Cayenne sport-utility vehicle and a Chevrolet Tahoe hybrid, in coming years.
In a flurry of announcements before, during and after the 2005 auto show in Frankfurt, Germany, automakers around the globe suddenly voiced new interest in hybrid vehicles that combine gasoline engines with onboard electric power. These vehicles have been garnering increasing attention from American consumers, primarily because many hybrids provide improved fuel economy over comparable gas-only models.

Even BMW, the maker of German performance vehicles, and Porsche, known for its race-inspired sports cars, now say they'll get into hybrid production by the end of the decade."

Hmmm, I wonder whose copying who now. Let me wait and see the comments. Cheers!

reply to this comment

Agent63 - 8/27/2006 9:20:01 PMView My AgentSpace

0 Boost

JT do you drive an Echo or a Yaris? =P

reply to this comment

vcowman - 8/27/2006 9:28:47 PM

+2 Boost

I think what it comes down to is two fundamental business models and philosophies about car building. PlanoA4's user profile says "Vorsprung durch Technik", which means "Progress through Technology" in German. This is inherently superior to the Japanese brands sensiblities regarding efficiency and refining but not innovating. We the German car fans think Lexus isn't a true competitor because German brands have been market innovators for 100 years and their cars have character.

reply to this comment

Mark - 8/27/2006 9:32:18 PM

+1 Boost

Well, I wasn't going to get involved and most likely won't but I just have to keep commenting on logical and "others...DFO, etc..." that just don't have any right to post thier comments without growing up first.

As pointed out on the last RS4 article...." you all don't even like the color of the tires of a Audi or Lexus."

But it's what keeps the site running. So both of you and the rest of your camp keep spitting out your comments and we'll all be here to put you in your place.

reply to this comment

AUDIMAN4 - 8/27/2006 10:08:18 PM

+1 Boost

SSP550:

Just an FYI, Audi has been at the forefront of hybrid research and technology, and began investing in this technology way before Lexus did.

In 1989, Audi unveiled the first generation of the Audi Duo experimental vehicle, based on the Audi 100 Avant Quattro. Two years later, Audi unveiled the second generation Duo, also based on the Audi 100 Avant quattro.

In 1997, Audi became the first manufacturer in Europe to take a hybrid vehicle into volume production: the Audi duo based on the A4 Avant.

So where does Lexus play into this? Oh, that's right....eight years later. OWNED

reply to this comment

AUDIMAN4 - 8/27/2006 10:11:34 PM

-2 Boost

00JT:

I think your post is critically flawed, and for a more accurate description of why most German car owners don't regard Lexus as competition, refer to my article entitled 'Why Lexus Shouldn't Be Regarded Prestigious'.

Heritage was a very small part of this.

reply to this comment

huu76 - 8/27/2006 10:12:57 PM

0 Boost

cowman,
Lexus could buy an M3, stick their label on it and you guys would say "it can't replicate that German feeling".

The fact is the Germans use "being German" as the be all and end all when they can't win anywhere else.

reply to this comment

AUDIMAN4 - 8/27/2006 10:50:23 PM

0 Boost

True, but neither actually released hybrid products prior to 1997. Audi has been the only premium German manufacturer to actually bring to market such technology, and this was done before Lexus. Stay focused, Will.

reply to this comment

GermanNut - 8/27/2006 10:51:04 PM

+1 Boost

I agree with efoxS4 and all the other Audi and Lexus supporters. It is high time that we and together and completely dismiss the arguements and posts by Logical.

The best thing to do is to not even respond to Logical's clear disregard for automotive engineering, build quality, price and vaue as the typical world-wide consumers see it.

Logical and the other Audi and Lexus haters see things in their own little way which is entirely different from the way the rest of the world looks at Audi, Lexus, BMW and Mercedes.

Logical's posts claiming Audi is a econobox POS that is for the person who can't afford the BMW M3 is obviously false.

It certainly doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that across Audi's entire model range they have models that are priced higher than their BMW counterparts.

Audi's RS4 is $16K more expensive than the BMW M3 and therefore someone who can afford an Audi RS4 can also afford a BMW M3. The A4 2.0T with Quattro and Tiptronic is MORE expensive than a 325i.

The RS6 (previous generation) was more expensive than both the BMW M5 and MB E55 AMG. Again, those who can afford the RS6 can also afford the M5 or E55.

The Audi A8L 4.2 also has lease rates higher than a BMW 750Li and the Audi A8L 6.0 W12 starts at the same price as a BMW 760Li (or maybe only a few hundred dollars less) When someone is spending nearly $120K a few hundred dollars is nothing.

Nobody says oh my god I'm not getting car A because it costs $118,900 but I'll get car B because it only costs $118,030.

Logical your time has come to an end. I urge all on this forum to stop responding to Logical and all the other Audi haters posts.

When the Chief Executive Officer of BMW itself acknowledges that Audi is a competitor to BMW, I definetely do not think that your saying Audi is a rebadged Volkswagen POS of shit is going to change anyone's mind Logical.

When cars such as the RS4 make the benchmark BMW M3 look like an econobox in terms of price (66K for RS4 vs $55K for M3), straight-line acceleration (0-60 in 4.3 which is the fastest possible time for the RS4, vs. 4.5 for the BMW M3), quality and ergonomics of interior (Again nobody can find me that article I've been asking for...thus it confirms Audi's superiority in interior design) and track performance (The Audi RS4 defeats the BMW M5 on the Nurburgring and eats the M3 alive) I think it should be received with admiration. Of course the rest of the media has praised the RS4 for what it means for Audi, but of course you can't do the same.

I am not biased to any company. I have an Audi right now and also have BMWs. The lease payments on my Audi are higher than they would be on a BMW 325i.

I've had enough of you and the same goes for the rest of this board.

reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 11:06:14 PM

+1 Boost

Audiman4,

I have re-read your article, that being said you still don't get the point.

Lexus has been credited with more things than the hybrid system. Even still German fanatics insist the technology came from somewhere else. Does this really matter? Should Audi not be allowed to have airbags and ABS brakes in their cars because Mercedes invented those safety features? Maybe it's better for Lexus to have a brick wall pop out of the steering wheel in a collission in order for the German fanatics to call that original.

Engines? Who ever said that Ward's list was the sole credible source? JD Power and Consumer reports declare year after year that Lexus are among the most reliable cars in the industry. The engines spec-wise are also very competitive if not even better than some of it's Germanic competition. If you don't believe me then why don't we just look at cold hard facts.

Mercedes C350
3.5 liter V6
268 hp
20/28 mpg

Lexus IS350
Same displacent 3.5 liter V6
However the IS will make 306 hp (38 more hp)
While getting slightly better gas mileage 21/28 mpg

Going back to heritage/prestige, if you don't believe me when I say it is a major pillar in an Lexus vs German car debate, then look up any heated argument between a Lexus and German car fan.

reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 11:18:20 PM

+1 Boost

Agent 63,

Neither actually, curious to what you drive? Beetle?

reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 11:22:33 PM

+1 Boost

vcowman,

"We the German car fans think Lexus isn't a true competitor because German brands have been market innovators for 100 years and their cars have character."

Next time you buy a non-Mercedes German car think about Audi and BMW not inventing all those safety features (Airbags, ABS, Traction Control, etc.). Is that really going to stop you from buying that Audi, BMW, or VW? <-------- That is my point. We Lexus fans feel the same way.

reply to this comment

00JT - 8/27/2006 11:25:22 PM

+1 Boost